496 vibration



496 vibration

Postby vettman040 » February 18th, 2014, 6:52 pm

Hi guys,

I have a newly built 496 engine which supposedly was all balanced and assembled when I got it. It now resides in a 65 Corvette with a 4 speed. After having purchased and installed a brand new GM externally balanced balancer and a brand new LUK steel flywheel, 12" clutch and pressure plate, my engine has a vibration while standing still, starting around 1000 rpm's and continues up through the rpm range. It doesn't get any worst but noticeable. I've taken the belts off so far and ran it that way but still has vibration.

Any suggestions as to what I can look at next? I don't know if it's internal or outside the engine. I've contacted the builder and he suggestions that the flywheel was misaligned with the dowel pin. I wasn't aware there was more than one way to put the flywheel on even though I don't have a dowel pin. The engine is a 1990-91 Mark IV 2 piece rear main 4 bolt main engine.

Desperate!!!


Nick
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Re: 496 vibration

Postby Indycars » February 18th, 2014, 7:29 pm

vettman040 wrote:Guys, I have a 496 Chevy BB. I bought it already built and assembled. It is a 90-91 block with 2 piece rear main seal. I bought a brand new GM balancer for 454/502 (externally balanced) that is degreed, a timing cover for an 8" balancer that went to a BB (don't know the year of cover). I'm having a heck of a time trying to timing the engine to run smooth. I set the timing gears at #1 TDC and the balancer at 0 degrees before installing the timing cover. I installed the distributor to fire number 1 but it's having a hard time starting, and if it runs, doesn't run good even after trying to set the timing. I'm setting at 12* initial and centrifugal coming 36-38* with vacuum disconnected. I have tried to move the distributor CC one tooth to retard and forward one tooth CCW to advance, can't get it running right. After it heats up, lopes really bad trying to restart, if fact sometimes won't start at all.
I've read the posts here and began thinking that possibly my timing pointer and or balancer is not aligned right. Because the engine is in the car (65 Corvette), what's the proper procedure for locating TDC on the #1 piston. BTW, the engine is is hard to turn by hand (breaker bar on the front balancer bolt).
I'm at wits end trying to get this beast running right. Any help/suggestions would be life-saving at this point.

Nick

Nick, what did you decide on the above problem?

We learn when you post your results!
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Re: 496 vibration

Postby grumpyvette » February 18th, 2014, 7:52 pm

a 496 big block can be built with either INTERNALLY BALANCED COMPONENTS or EXTERNALLY BALANCED COMPONENTS, but every part in the assembly should match the desired goal, and be balanced to match.

the stock 454 bbc was externally balanced so if the new aftermarket crank was internally balanced and you reused either the damper or flex plate or fly wheel on a new internally balanced rotating assembly its sure to be out of balance.
and yes the flywheel or flexplate has or at least used to have an index pin.

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3900&p=12449&hilit=internal+external#p12449

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=6026&p=21582&hilit=crank+index#p21582

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=204&p=5377&hilit=crank+index#p5377
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: 496 vibration

Postby vettman040 » February 18th, 2014, 9:07 pm

Indycars wrote:
vettman040 wrote:Guys, I have a 496 Chevy BB. I bought it already built and assembled. It is a 90-91 block with 2 piece rear main seal. I bought a brand new GM balancer for 454/502 (externally balanced) that is degreed, a timing cover for an 8" balancer that went to a BB (don't know the year of cover). I'm having a heck of a time trying to timing the engine to run smooth. I set the timing gears at #1 TDC and the balancer at 0 degrees before installing the timing cover. I installed the distributor to fire number 1 but it's having a hard time starting, and if it runs, doesn't run good even after trying to set the timing. I'm setting at 12* initial and centrifugal coming 36-38* with vacuum disconnected. I have tried to move the distributor CC one tooth to retard and forward one tooth CCW to advance, can't get it running right. After it heats up, lopes really bad trying to restart, if fact sometimes won't start at all.
I've read the posts here and began thinking that possibly my timing pointer and or balancer is not aligned right. Because the engine is in the car (65 Corvette), what's the proper procedure for locating TDC on the #1 piston. BTW, the engine is is hard to turn by hand (breaker bar on the front balancer bolt).
I'm at wits end trying to get this beast running right. Any help/suggestions would be life-saving at this point.

Nick

Nick, what did you decide on the above problem?

We learn when you post your results!


Indycars,

I went over this completely and found that my distributor was at fault. I couldn't find anyone in the nearby area that had a SUN distributor machine to recurve my distributor. I found that my centrifugal was limited to only 27*. Upon disassembly of the dizzy, I changed removed the stop limiter on the centrifugal side and retried, this time getting 32*. I kept experimenting with the various springs I had bought and finally found a combination of 2 medium springs that would give me the 36-37* I was trying to achieve. The car started and ran pretty good. Using the dial in timing light, I set the initial at 12*, checked that the centrifugals were coming in at 37* (vacuum can disconnected & plugged). When the vacuum was plugged back in, I had a total advance of 48* which seemed where this BB likes to run. Once on the street, the engine didn't skip a beat so I think I solved the timing issue. Now for the vibration........stay tuned.
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Re: 496 vibration

Postby vettman040 » February 18th, 2014, 9:21 pm

grumpyvette wrote:a 496 big block can be built with either INTERNALLY BALANCED COMPONENTS or EXTERNALLY BALANCED COMPONENTS, but every part in the assembly should match the desired goal, and be balanced to match.

the stock 454 bbc was externally balanced so if the new aftermarket crank was internally balanced and you reused either the damper or flex plate or fly wheel on a new internally balanced rotating assembly its sure to be out of balance.
and yes the flywheel or flexplate has or at least used to have an index pin.

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3900&p=12449&hilit=internal+external#p12449

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=6026&p=21582&hilit=crank+index#p21582

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=204&p=5377&hilit=crank+index#p5377


grumpyvette,
the builder assures me that this is an externally balanced engine, here are the listing facts of my engine:
A COMPLETELY REBUILT 4 BOLT MAIN 496 CUBIC INCH,WOW!!!!! (MARK IV, 454 4 BOLT BLOCK WITH A 2 PIECE REAR SEAL, 9.800 DECK) CHEVROLET STROKER ENGINE.OUR BLOCKS ARE MACHINED ON OUR BRAND NEW RMC V40 FULLY AUTOMATIC CNC MACHINE FOR THE TIGHTEST AND BEST FINISH PRODUCT HERE ON E BAY OR ANYWHERE!!! THE WORK PREFORMED TO THIS ENGINE IS AS FOLLOWS:

1. THIS BLOCK HAS BEEN OVEN CLEANED(HAS NO RUST OR SCALE), SHOT PEENED, MAGNAFLUXED AND PRESSURE TESTED.

2. THE BLOCK IS FRESHLY BORED AND TORQUE PLATE MOLY HONED TO .060 ALL BLOCKS ARE ALSO SONIC CHECKED TO ENSURE CONCENTRIC CYLINDER WALL THICKNESS AFTER BORING AND HONING.

3. THE BLOCK HAS BEEN LINE HONED, SQUARE DECKED, AND NEW CAM BEARINGS INSTALLED ALONG WITH NEW BRASS FREEZE PLUGS. ALL BOLT HOLES AND THREADS ARE FINE.

4. THIS ENGINE HAS A BRAND NEW SET OF LIGHTWEIGHT, FULLY CNC MACHINED PROBE INDUSTRIES FORGED RACING PISTONS AND SPEED PRO PLASMA MOLY RINGS ( 1/16, 1/16, 3/16 OIL) THESE PISTONS YEILD A PUMP GAS FRIENDLY 10.25:1 COMPRESSION RATIO. PROBE IS AN INDUSTRY LEADER IN RACING PISTONS.

5. NEW CLEVITTE H BEARINGS FOR RODS AND MAINS, ROD AND CAMSHAFT BEARINGS WERE INSTALLED. THE CAMSHAFT IS A NEW ELGIN INDUSTRIES E1143P AND WITH A TRUE CLOYES DOUBLE ROLLER CHAIN SET. THIS CAMSHAFT IS A HYDRAULIC LIFTER GRIND .576 LIFT 246 DURATION @.050 ON BOTH THE INTAKE AND EXHAUST AND IT IS GROUND ON 108 DEGREE LOBE SEPERATION. THIS CAMSHAFT HAS A DISTINCT LOPY IDLE AND IS DESIGNED TO MAKE MAXIMUM POWER IN THE 2500-6500 RPM RANGE. INSTALLED ALONG WITH THE CAMSHAFT IS A NEW SET OF ELGIN HYDRAULIC LIFTERS.

6. RODS ARE BRAND NEW PRO-COMP ENTERPRISES FORGED STEEL H BEAM CAP SCREW WITH 7/16 BOLTS AND FULL FLOATING WRIST PINS. THE RODS ARE 6.385 (STOCK ROD LENGTH IS 6.135) THESE RODS ARE .250 LONGER THAN STOCK. THE INCREASE IN ROD LENGTH PRODUCES LESS SIDE LOAD ON THE PISTON WHICH RESULTS IN LESS FRICTION AND GREATER HORSEPOWER AND TORQUE THROUGHOUT THE RPM RANGE.

7. THE CRANKSHAFT IS BRAND NEW AIRCRAFT QUALITY PRO-COMP CAST STEEL 4.250 2 PIECE REAL SEAL CRANKSHAFT.THE CRANKSHAFT IS SHOT PEENED FOR STRESS RELIEVING AND HAS A FULL .125 RADIUS ON THE MAINS AND ROD JOURNALS!, THIS CRANKSHAFT IS ALSO EXTERNALLY BALANCED AND IS THE BEST OF THE BEST!!(4.250 STROKE, 1/4 INCH LONGER THEN STOCK 454), FRESHLY MICRO POLISHED AND STANDARD ON THE ROD AND MAIN JOURNALS.

8. THIS ENGINE IS FULLY BALANCED ON OUR NEW RMC COMPUTER BALANCER AND IT IS ALSO BLUEPRINTED. PISTONS, RODS AND CRANKSHAFT ARE BALANCED TO LESS THEN 1 GRAM. ( MOST MACHINE SHOPS ONLY BALANCE TO A 5 GRAM SPREAD) BEARING CLEARANCES WERE SET AT .002 ON BOTH THE MAINS AND RODS.

The last resort would be to remove the engine and have a machine shop go through a total disassembly to check each and every part. I don't want to resort to this yet. I "assume" this builder did his job and I did mine purchasing the proper externally balanced parts for it. In reading the forums, Corvettes seem to like vibrating at various RPM ranges, not that this is acceptable but just occurs. I will pull the tranny and check the flywheel alignment with the dowel pin hole. I'll also get the flywheel and pressure plate balance as I should have done initially. Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated at this point. Working on a 65 Corvette without a lift is no walk in the park as you can well imagine.
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Re: 496 vibration

Postby philly » February 18th, 2014, 10:59 pm

you say the motor doesnt skip a beat now so i assume its not misfiring, can you describe this "vibration?" does it only happen at a certain rpm or in a certain gear?
-phil

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Re: 496 vibration

Postby vettman040 » February 19th, 2014, 5:32 am

Phil,
The vibration starts around 1000RPM sitting still in neutral in the driveway. As you slowly accelerate upward, the vibration continues, doesn't get any more violent, just there. Feel it in the steering wheel, shifter handle, on the gas pedal as well as the mirror shaking. I did take it out on the street and as you come up thru 1st gear, a noticeable shake. It seems to vibrate less at higher rpms, say around 60 and accelerating. I haven't driven the street much for fear of break down but probably going to try it more and chart the behavior of the car at different speeds and rpms.
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Re: 496 vibration

Postby grumpyvette » February 19th, 2014, 10:29 am

can you post clear detailed pictures of each spark plug labeled as to the cylinder number?
can you do a quick test , simply get the engine idling and use an infrared temp gun to label the header temps measured in the same place on each cylinder, do a compression test too and post results, and verify the ohms resistance on each ignition wire.
and yes you could always, do the old test,where you let the engine idle, and pull a single spark plug wire off the distributor cap, watch for changes in the way the engine idles (it should get obviously rougher) and replace (it should return to normal) it then move to the next one, looking for changes in the idle, any plug you pull that has almost no effect could indicate a problem with the corresponding cylinder.


viewtopic.php?f=44&t=579&p=19289&hilit=INFRARED#p19289

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=4683

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=196

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=109
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: 496 vibration

Postby philly » February 20th, 2014, 3:49 am

yea grumpy im with you sounds like hes running on 7 cylinders... i would have suggested possibly a drivetrain issue had he not mentioned the occurrence in neutral.

a quick test while the car is idling is to pull off a plug wire from the rotor, and see the way the idle changes, then put it back, repeat this process for each of the plug wires and if you pull a wire and get no change in idle quality, theres your ignition culprit, or atleast youve narrowed it down to which cylinder, hopefully its as simple as a bad plug or plug wire.

if it isnt the plug or wire, i would suggest once you have isolated the cylinder, pull the valve cover off that bank and ensure your rockers are a-rockin' on that cylinder,could possibly have wiped out a cam lobe or a lifter from some malpractice duing your break in.
-phil

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Re: 496 vibration

Postby vettman040 » February 20th, 2014, 7:28 pm

Guys, happened to get the car to my good buddy who's a Corvette tech at a GM dealership. He listened and drove it and felt that perhaps the valves were lashed a bit tight, heard the popping sound coming from the side pipes. I figured a brand new engine that was assembled "correctly", couldn't be so never gave this a thought. This weekend I'll be going after the valves (they're hydraulic lifters this time, miss my solids) and check the lash. Hopefully, this will give me significant results. I think you guys were on the right track trying to narrow it down to a cylinder. I told him about this forum and what was posted so far and he agreed also that in was not internal but something just not right. This has never ever happened before but live and learn. Will post results after working on the valves. :)
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Re: 496 vibration

Postby philly » February 20th, 2014, 7:59 pm

right on, keep us posted!
-phil

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Re: 496 vibration

Postby vettman040 » February 24th, 2014, 3:23 pm

Guys
Well over the weekend, I did a cold valve adjustment: with the valve covers off, I did the following:
1.Bring rotor & timing mark to #1 @TDC
2. proceeded to adjust the following valves by loosening the poly lock, then the adjust nut, rotate the push rod by hand until it barely moves, then turned 1/2 turn beyond that.
3. I did the following valves:
a. INTAKE = #'s 1-2-5-7
b. EXHAUST = #'s 1-3-4-8
4. then rotated the engine 180* to bring #6 @TDC (watched the rotor and timing mark)
a. INTAKE = #'s 3-4-6-8
b. EXHAUST = #'s 2-5-6-7
5. Started and retimed the engine to 12* initial with 48-50* total, reset the carb and idle screw to 850 rpm's

Put it all back together but still had a vibration and a slight "spurt" coming every so often thru the side pipes. (same as before)

Pulled all the plugs, running rich btw, I ran a compression test on each cylinder to see if there possibly was a valve hanging opened or even closed or a lobe wiped and came up with the following:
1. did 3 separate tests on each cylinder trying to give it the same amount of engine cranks
2. the following were averages for each cylinder:
a. #1 = 154 e. #2 = 158
b. #3 = 156 f. #4 = 149
c. #5 = 149 g. #6 = 155
d. #7 = 158 h. #8 = 154

I also ran a resistance check on my supposedly new silicon 8mm wires. I did find #8 had 0 resistance so changed it out with a new one. Here's the results
My ohm meter read the following for each individual wire:
1. 1532 5. 1523
2. 1538 6. 1281
3. 1056 7. 1208
4. 992 8. 1375

Aside from the "spurting" , the vibration starts as you accelerate in neutral standing still and revving the rpm's slowly, starts at 1000 and remains thru the rpm range.

Could I have a flywheel/pressure plate out of balance? Even though they were brand new from Carolina Clutch, 12" clutch and plate and new LUK steel flywheel, could they be off a slight bit causing the vibrations? :?:
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Re: 496 vibration

Postby vettman040 » March 9th, 2014, 8:13 am

grumpyvette wrote:can you post clear detailed pictures of each spark plug labeled as to the cylinder number?
can you do a quick test , simply get the engine idling and use an infrared temp gun to label the header temps measured in the same place on each cylinder, do a compression test too and post results, and verify the ohms resistance on each ignition wire.
and yes you could always, do the old test,where you let the engine idle, and pull a single spark plug wire off the distributor cap, watch for changes in the way the engine idles (it should get obviously rougher) and replace (it should return to normal) it then move to the next one, looking for changes in the idle, any plug you pull that has almost no effect could indicate a problem with the corresponding cylinder.


viewtopic.php?f=44&t=579&p=19289&hilit=INFRARED#p19289

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=4683

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=196

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=109


Grumpy,
I did an IR exhaust temp check yesterday and found each exhaust port running around 375*-400* except for number 8 cylinder, it was at 225*. I rechecked the wire for resistance (had 1375), pulled the plug, slightly carboned but not wet, checked cap and rotor (no visible signs of wear), changed the cap and rotor. On the next restart, the temp in #8 came up to 386* so could have been cap. Do you have suggestions as to what my timing should be for this engine? I'm working with 12* initial, the centrifugals seem to be coming in too quick, like 900-950rpms. The timing at 3500 rpms is 38-41* w/o the vacuum connected. All I have from the engine builder is set initial @10* and go from there.
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Re: 496 vibration

Postby vettman040 » March 27th, 2014, 6:05 pm

After Dave at Hartbeat Racing in Mt. Dora finally got into the engine internally this past week, the dreaded phone call I was waiting for came through. He had a list of things that were supposedly done by the previous engine builder (supplied him with a copy of the work sheet that was "done"). The block was never honed with torque plates, the block was never properly line bored, the #4 main was almost spun (only 4 hours of run time or less so far), the rod bolts used were too short so only 3-4 threads were holding the rod caps in place (matter of time before it snapped on of these off). The cheap cast crankshaft being an externally balanced engine, had more holes drilled in it than swiss cheese. Needless to say, you get what you paid for, I went cheap to save a buck and got a crap Chinese engine with very inferior parts and sloppy machining. I called the engine builder to explain to him in a calm and orderly fashion what I had just learned about his engine work. Well the professionalism was gone at the 1st mention that anything was wrong with his build. The screaming and acquisitions were rampant and the screaming from his end got sooooo freakin' loud, couldn't even understand what he was saying and he simply hung up on me, very professional!
BUYER BEWARE- LIVE & LEARN !!!!


I finally got the chance to stop and see Dave at Hartbeat Racing in Mt. Dora, FL. He showed me my engine completely torn apart, not a pretty sight. I actually got to see the Scat steel crankshaft that was originally an internally balanced crank butchered into an externally balanced pile of junk. There were so many unnecessary holes drilled into the throws of the crank that even Dave had no idea why they went that route. On their balance machine with the new GM harmonic balancer and new LUK steel flywheel connected, the entire assembly was off at one point by 33 grams and 32 grams at another point. So much for perfectly balanced engine.
He then showed me the engine block and the shiny spots at the top of the bore indicating that the block was not honed with a torque plate attached. BTW, all 8 cylinders looked the same way. The rods were connected by bolts that did not protrude all the way thru the cap, only about 3-4 threads were holding a cap that could spin to 6500 RPM's. That was a disaster waiting to happen. The so-called 10-1compression ratio was utterly impossible with high domed pistons installed. He showed me the #4 main bearing that was already starting to show wear and fatigue, would have eventually spin, this with about 5 hours of run time on it, mostly in the garage. The block was supposedly line bored but the main caps showed absolutely no sign of any machine ever touching them.
Hopefully, Dave can work his magic and being the professional that he is, he'll get it working the way it should have been built in the 1st place.
I can say from experience that anyone planning to buy a "rebuilt big block" from an online vendor, better think twice unless they're related to you and you trust them with your life!
STAY AWAY FROM SHAW ENGINES out of Fresno, Ca. He sells on eBay, writes up a good writing, talks a great story line and sells junk!
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Re: 496 vibration

Postby grumpyvette » March 27th, 2014, 8:46 pm

your hardly the first and youll surely not be the last guy to find out that the vast majority of low cost rebuilds offered for sale are just as you described "JUNK, that is hours away from falling apart" and unfortunately theres even some of the higher priced stuff being marketed thats only marginally better!
theres a good many damn rip-off artists that make a living cheating the gullible out of their hard earned cash!
when I help some guy build an engine I like to point out each step , in the process and we discuss whats going to be done and why, it needs to be done!
and point out options and then I let them make the decisions after I explain the consequences of doing or NOT doing the required work and whats very likely to result if they don,t want to do whats required to do it correctly. if you build an engine that way, theres some logic in the cost, of the engine build as it progresses , as the cost adds up,otherwise, it always seems far too excessive.
if I was to just say, heres your kick ass 383, pay me $7,000-to-$9,000!
THE NORMAL GUYS GOING TO THINK IM A CROOK, BUT IF HE REALIZES that the only thing I got out of the deal was a few lunches, he bought along the way, and maybe $250 total profit and the rest was spent by him personally on parts that went directly into his engine and that money was spent by him personally AT the local machine shop of his choice,and not to me, is suddenly dawns on him that I,m not exactly making peanuts, on the deal.
I don,t give a damn where he gets the machine work done, that I can,t do in my shop, I just give him very detailed instructions and suggest a few local shops I know do decent work, as long as its done correctly , I,m happy ,and we darn well are going to verify each part before its installed.
and when he puts his big boot on the floor and leaves 200 feet of black rubber in the street and the engine doesn,t come apart and he is still driving it without issues a year later he tends to understand the value in doing things correctly
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: 496 vibration

Postby philly » March 28th, 2014, 8:39 am

what a bummer, sorry to hear that engine builder was a crook. it happens to everyone at some point. live and learn
-phil

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