under car safety



under car safety

Postby grumpyvette » September 16th, 2008, 9:52 pm

I had a guy forward me this info

"I know we have all read and heard many a times,when you jack your car up to work on it PUT THE DAMN JACK STANDS UNDER THE CARS FRAME. Well I just got a call from my Aunt and Uncle that my cousin 2 years older than I am (and i'm 42)who's name is also Kevin was working on his truck today,had it jacked up but decided to use loose stacks of 2x4's under the front tires for support stands,well the jack collapsed the truck fell on his chest and he was pronounced DEAD at the scene.Not only does this suck because i lost a close family member but i also lost one of my best hunting buddies. Now you have read and heard the story again but this time there is no happy ending USE YOUR STANDS!!!"

http://www.corvette-guru.com/uploads/sm ... acking.pdf
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(4 of the 12 ton rated HF jack stands, set at the height of the lower jack stand in the picture below set under a corvettes frame hold a corvette securely at the correct height for using a mechanics creeper )

I try to look for and buy American made products any time I can and don,t mind one bit paying an additional 10%-20%-even 30% more because I know from experience that theres frequently a good deal more quality components than in import clone parts, making the parts well worth the cost difference, there not much point in saving 30% on a part or tool that won,t do the job its designed to do, or one that can,t do its job safely!
but in a side by side comparison the import looked to be better made,
So I think your fighting a lost battle here,the last time I researched this, a decent 10-12 ton rated American made jack stand that has a wide base and can get a car frame 20'-24" off the floor safely, is well over 200$ EACH

Ive used 6 12 ton rated jack stands like these for almost 20 years now in my shop they are well made
http://www.zr1netregistry.com/jackupzr1.htm
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/tools-hard ... 70912.html

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/ ... _200330725
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-jac ... 34924.html
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These super heavy duty jack stands will hold most cars and trucks safely at near 2 feet off the ground. Perfect for repair work or storage.

Height: 19-1/2'' to 30-1/8''
Base: 12'' x 12-1/2''

Shipping Weight: 69.50 lbs.

"how do you get the HF 12 ton jack stands under the vette?, my floor jack won,t lift that high (20")"


GOOD VALID QUESTION!, PROBABLY WE SHOULD discuss it

If your going to work under your car I hope you support the car safely, some of you might think Im old fashion but some repairs (even thou I own a LIFT) are easier to do with (4) 12 ton jack stands and a mechanics creeper, but for your own safety ID STRONGLY SUGGEST you buy and USE 4 of these 12 ton jack stands and work on a LEVEL CONCRETE FLOOR when ever you can, yes IM well aware that you can buy smaller ,less expensive jack stands, how much is YOUR LIFE WORTH!, if its worth a couple hundred dollars, and a few minutes of your time, to keep from being killed or crippled for life I figure its worth the time and money
most common floor jacks have a max lift height between 18"-22" I have a pair of 3 ton floor jacks,that originally only lift to 20" and thats really too tight to clear,
your surely not alone in having too lift the car in steps to place the taller 12 ton jack stands or similarly tall jack stands that allow full access under the car.
now in my case I found the darn floor jack won,t fit under the corvette as it sits on the shop floor unless you use some careful planing first, I drive the vette up on plastic rhino ramps to get the necessary clearance, I place the first floor jack and lift the front K-member and place the two front 12 ton jack stands on the frame near the a arms on the frame, I then remove the front floor jack and place it and my second floor jack under the rear side frame behind the doors on each side, I jack each side up a bit, then swap to the other side in several stages IF im alone, (naturally if I have help both sides get jacked up at the same time)untill its high enough to place each of the two or four remaining 12 ton jacks into place under the frame.
now a bit of info Ive installed 1 3/4" thick rubber pads that are approximately 4" in diam. on both my floor jacks to both get the necessary lift and protect the frame from scratches these are made from thick sections of earth mover or dump truck tire tread rubber I found at a dump

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http://www.kwik-lift.com/index.html
IF you have limited height the QUICK LIFT RAMPS MIGHT BE AN OPTION
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when your looking to buy a floor jack, Id strongly suggest you, verify it fits under 3" when all the way down and ideally lifts to 22" all the way up and hopefully lifts a 2.5-3 ton rating, this will allow it to be used on a corvette fairly easily and allow you to use the larger and much sturdier and more stable jack stands easily, the problem many guys have is either the jack won,t slide under the corvette frame easily or it won,t lift the corvette high enough for the larger jack stands that make use of a decent quality mechanics creeper easy to use.
Id at least take it apart and inspect it, its more than likely a couple leaking O-rings or a busted return spring, that will cost under $7 to replace.
Ive found most floor jack problems are related to leaking seals.
and your correct a decent floor jacks no longer reasonably priced, yes you can buy some fairly functional imports but any American made jack Ive seen lately that will provide 22" of lift allowing use of decent strength jack stands to be placed under the cars frame and is at least 2.5 ton-to- 3 ton rated , is going to be expensive.
[B]finding a floor jack that meets All three parameters is not all that simple

QUOTE,POSTED BY KEVIN!

[color=#008000] BTW
read these threads also


http://www.zr1netregistry.com/jackupzr1.htm

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/multi/wood-block.htm

viewforum.php

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=3178&p=11972&hilit=creeper#p11972

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1018

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=459&p=563#p563

http://www.levo-artis.com/

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=1024&p=1894#p1894

the ONLY thing Ive bought from HF that IM totally happy with is the (6),12 ton jack stands

http://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-jack-stands-34924.html
personally I prefer the 6 and 12 ton rated jack stands if IM working on the car, and prefer that the wheels and frame get supported but if only the front of the cars up on jack stands,using wheel chocks behind the rear wheels certainly are a good idea
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both the design and quality of manufacture matter its your choice but remember your going to be under the car ,no mater what you select, so be damn sure its sturdy with a healthy safety margin and a wide base,making them hard to tip,and be sure theres a good bit of metal in the design,several good designs , are available

theres NOTHING preventing you buying the HF design and drilling a few 5/8" holes to allow inserting a grade 8 bolt in those as a second safety either
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-jac ... 34924.html

they hold up my 3300lb corvette just fine, at the correct height to use a mechanics creeper
but I suppose having a 700% safety margin helps
I prefer using a decent mechanics creeper as Im older and it makes access easier, the stands set on the first notch seem to be a comfortable height
at least for my creeper
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I know lots of guys who have built vehicle support pads from stacked 2x4s like these, and its cheap and easy to do, compared to the 12 ton jack stands,, but heres a few tips, use a good deal of wood glue on the contact points between the layers, 2x4s generally come in 8 foot lengths you get (6) 15 7/8" long sections of 2x4 per 8 foot length (remember the saw blade removes 1/8" per cut,and you need to keep the stack solid, a 15 7/8" x 15 7/8" section of 3/4" plywood sandwiched between the second and a second section next to the top layer adds a great deal of structural rigidity and tends to reduce the supports tendency to come apart.
you can drill each end of each 2x4 in the same location and use a carriage bolt and washers and nuts or thread rod and a counter sink to clamp the stack firmly, but its the wood glue thats the true binder, if its used correctly.
use pressure treated 2/4s for the lowest layer, and glueing a bit of old inner tube to the lower floor contact area prevents them from sliding easily. most jacks only lift to about 18" so it makes a great deal of sense to actually jack up your car and measure the distance between the tires and the floor before assembling a support stack , only to find its too tall for you to slide it under the tires.
adding a handle on the side like in the picture above, makes moving the support stack easier.
the 12 ton, jack stands still work better in some cases because you will need to remove the tires from the car and most jack stands are adjustable as to height while the support stack works best under the tires.
2x4s can commonly be had very cheaply , youll need about 12-16 , too build (4)supports, and a couple hours at most, I doubt youll have $40 invested in 4 once your done if you shop carefully

BTW if you purchase a single 3 ft x 5 ft rubber waffle mat it can be cut to produce four matching sections of rubber pads that can be screwed and glued to the support stack lower surface this prevents the pads from sliding on wet floors and reduces the damage potential damage to the support over time,if the stack of wood were subjected to water on the shop floor
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http://www.homedepot.com/s/rubber+floor+mats?NCNI-5


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this may help
http://revlimiter.net/blog/2010/07/mega ... -review-1/

http://revlimiter.net/blog/2010/07/mega ... -review-2/

verify your floor jack fits under 3" when all the way down and ideally lifts to 22" all the way up and hopefully lifts a 2.5-3 ton rating, this will allow it to be used on a corvette fairly easily and allow you to use the larger and much sturdier and more stable jack stands easily, the problem many guys have is either the jack won,t slide under the corvette frame easily or it won,t lift the corvette high enough for the larger jack stands that make use of a decent quality mechanics creeper easy to use.
finding a floor jack that meets All three parameters is not all that simple

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=969&p=24460#p24460

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=3178&p=26472&hilit=creeper#p26472
a car lift in your shop
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=98


http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=34924
If your going to work under your car I hope you support the car safely, some of you might think Im old fashion but some repairs (even thou I own a LIFT) are easier to do with (4) 12 ton jack stands and a mechanics creeper


prices are up recently,
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-jac ... 34924.html

http://promocodesforyou.com/index.php?i ... 7AodJGG8BQ

check on sales, look for discount coupons and ask for the manager of the store as he has a great deal of leeway in pricing, when I bought mine the standard price was $60 a pair, but I went during a sale and they were marked 10% off plus I told the store manager I had a desire to buy 2 pairs if he made it worth my while, he dropped the price to $150 for 6 stands and no sales taxes

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look closely at the FLIMSY JACK STANDS IN THIS PICTURE, Ive seen several of that particular jack stand design , suddenly fail and collapse
I would strongly advise pitching them in the dumpster if you own any


Im not a huge fan of most of the stuff HF sells , but one exceptions the 12 ton jack stands Ive used the (6 ) I purchased to use along with a decent mechanics creeper ,in my shop for over 20 years with zero problems,have been fine, but they were $49 a pair when I bought them

http://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-jack-stands-34924.html
they are far more stable than the flimsy 3-6 ton rated crap I see sold at most auto parts stores , and places like walmart
and they allow you to get the car up to 22" or so and still not be easily rocked or tipped if you position them correctly on the frame

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[COLOR="Red"]I'm also a big believer in supporting both the wheels with support stacks and the frame with stands as I don,t care to do push ups with my corvette when I'm under it, on a mechanics creeper as I know two guys from my high school that have had cars fall on them, and a couple minutes safely supporting a car beats being dead any day[/COLOR]
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http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=34924

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26

at some point its just not all that much cheaper to build things that are lower quality, those HF stands are fine!
Ive had six of the 12 ton jack stands in near constant use for MANY YEARS, trust me! I agree that much of what HF sells is crap, those stands are an exception, go look at them! they are stable, massive and decent designed stands, and yes it helps to have two floor jacks because at the low , first notch setting they are still fairly high from the floor, giving you plenty of access under a corvette or (Z)


viewtopic.php?f=27&t=672


http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=34924

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/attachm ... points.pdf


12 ton jack stands #34924

normally $80 for two, now on sale for $55 for two

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3 ton next too 12 ton stands
http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26++

use the frame behind the front wheels and forward of the rear wheels BETWEEN THE TINY ARROWS SYMBOLS STAMPED IN THE SHEET STEEL,or in the front, the (K) member frame, cross over, that the suspensions mated too,to support the car, read the link
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you can use the front k-frame as a floor jack lift point but Ive always preferred to slide a 12" long and 6" wide section of 3/4" plywood between the floor jack pad and the k-frame to spread the lift /load and prevent scratching the k-frame, you will find you need to place the car on small ramps before you have sufficient clearance for most floor jacks doing that


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http://forums.corvetteforum.com/attachm ... points.pdf
another option, is using jack stands under the frame AND ADDITIONAL home made wood stands under the tires as a extra support or even in place of jack stands if they are properly designed, ...wood GLUED AND BOLTED TOGETHER
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"I have been looking for a lift for a while but my problem is my garage is not high enough for a full lift. What I want is a low rise or mid rise portable lift I can store under the car and it will be low enough to drive over when not is use. When I need it I can raise it up and have access to the underside of the car. Does anyone have one of these and which would you recommend. This is for a home garage. Thanks"

this will do everything you asked for in a low clearance garage

http://kwiklift.com/commercial.htm

http://kwiklift.com/Options.htm

what youll USE the lift for and WHERE you use it will have a major influence on the correct choice, one of my neighbors owned one for years,and it works fine, as long as you realize that you need to use a floor jack to raise the ramps and theres room for a mechanics creeper, for oil changes, clutch jobs etc., but its not like a true lift and small jack stands as safety back ups are a good idea,under the ramps, you don,t want to trust just the small end stands alone, and you need to chalk the wheels and put on the brakes so the car can,t roll, on the ramps.
it comes with instructions and some common sense its a great tool if your ceiling clearance prevents a real lift.
personally I think is a great tool but a real twin post lift gives you far more access to the suspension and area under the car if you can use one so the extra cost may be well worth it, to upgrade or wait until you can afford a real lift if your not fighting clearance issues but just looking at cost alone.
think thru what youll use it for and think of cost as a important but not the only factor in your choice.
I thought long and hard about getting a kwick-lift , but I just used 4 12 ton jack stands until I could afford a true two post lift as most of the things I use a lift for require access to the suspension and removing wheels etc,

http://www.kwiklift.com/Options.htm

http://www.kwiklift.com/Options.htm#SIZE

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=98

down
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up
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Ive used them at a couple friends garages that only had the common 8 ft ceiling height double garages, and they work really well, but I used the heavy duty version so I don,t know about the standard versions

now theres not much at harbor freight thats well worth the price but these are low tech and well worth the cost, Ive had 6 in the shop for years, they are just the correct height at the lowest setting to work under your car and FAR AWAY MUCH LARGER AND STEADIER, more heavily built, and not nearly as easy to tip the car over with when you use them as the cheap and more common 3 and 6 ton jack stands most guys use

are you not going to feel like a moron if the car falls from some cheap bargain jack stand when for a few dollars more you could have had substantially larger and strong and much more stable stands under the frame?
the guy who got killed at the start of this thread probably would not have purchased one, since he didn,t even have decent jack stands,
but its silly to think how little extra expense it takes to save a life
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http://www.creepex.com/indexEN.html
now heres a TOOL that at first glance may seem silly, BUT the more I look at this the more I think its a good idea , after thinking about it it makes perfect sense.....its a creeper with a built in safety roll cage to prevent getting crushed if the car did fall
a DECENT WELDER and some WELDING SKILLS, a short trip to the local metal supply store, a few quality casters, and a free weekend could result in a custom version magically appearing in your garage for under $200, but having a nice chrome /padded ,pro made version will look nicer
I just can,t tell you how often a decent welder comes in handy around the shop

This is the picture they show on how it can protect you.

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Unfortunately some of us are shaped like this.

but thankfully ,beer guts
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are generally flexible enough to survive a few minor/limited impacts with a cars underside, or many of us would be dead by now, but Ill be building a 19" clearance model If I weld one up, simply to take full advantage of the 20" plus under the cars frame with the 12 ton jack stands


I also have bought shop equipment from

http://www.gregsmithequipment.com/

with good results, and have had fast service
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these car skates or wheel dollies make moving a car you can,t drive easily around the shop far easier, and a couple tall jack stands come in handy under a lift at times


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viewtopic.php?f=27&t=132&p=2677&hilit=wheel+dollies#p2677

http://www.gregsmithequipment.com/2-Ton ... t58001.htm

http://www.gregsmithequipment.com/Move- ... htmd-4.htm

btw heres a car lift thread


viewtopic.php?f=27&t=98
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: under car safety

Postby grumpyvette » November 19th, 2008, 3:43 pm

http://www.corvettegadgetman.com/products3.html

lots of guys think this is a good idea,personally Ive never needed or wanted one but then Ive installed a custom exhaust and in my case its not needed.

I HAVE thought seriously about BUYing or WELDING UP something like these
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http://www.discountramps.com

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http://www.discountramps.com/low_profile_car_ramp.htm

keep in mind use of CAR RAMPs REQUIRE you to, both use ,the emergency brakes, and USE WHEEL CHALKS, ON BOTH WHEELS THAT ARE NOT ON THE RAMPS,, you certainly won,t be the first or last guy to have a car roll off ramps if you don,t use them
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http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product. ... =NA&rid=10

"1: why 12 ton? Ain't 6 ton more than enough?
2: how do you jack up the car? do you enroll your wife?
3: what floor jack do you use? Prices vary quite a bit?
"


[b]
IN MANY CASES USING A SMALL RAMP AIDS CLEARANCE FOR A FLOOR JACK
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[b] JACK ONLY THE FRONT OF THE CAR AND SUPPORTING ONLY THE FRONT< LEAVES THE CAR IN A POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS POSITION WHERE IT MIGHT ROLL

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THE CARS FAR MORE STABLE ONCE ITS UP ON FOUR 12 TON JACK STANDS IF YOU WANT TO USE A MECHANICS CREEPER[/b]



(1)
the 12 ton are BOTH FAR MORE STABLE from tipping or the car shifting, AND on the first notch they are exactly the correct height to allow comfortably accessing the under side of the car, place the 6 ton next to a 12 ton and raise both to the height of the 12 ton stands on the first notch, theres absolutely no comparison in your safety under the car, THERES ABSOLUTELY NO WAY YOU CAN COMPARE THE DEGREE OF STABILITY THE LARGER BASE AND STRONGER MATERIALS THE 12 TON STANDS PROVIDE[/b]

(2) your hardly the first guy to run into this, problem, you may need to fabricate or purchase floor jack spacer pads if your floor jack won,t raise the car high enough, I know I did, it was an easy process and I welded up my own, and both bolted and glued a 6: square section of old tire tread to the pads upper surface to prevent scaring the vettes car frame, so I could use the 12 ton jack stands, because my sears floor jacks could just barely reach the required height I fabricated spacers, with out the spacer pads, getting the 12 ton jack stands in place was more of a hassle,obviously this requires a bit of thinking in the procedure in getting the car up safely,to allow the taller jack height under the car frame,
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on most floor jacks the lift pad is easily interchangeable , you can buy a replacement jack saddle
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on most floor jacks the lift pad is easily interchangeable , you can buy a replacement and/ or weld a 2"-3" thick pad to the spare jack saddle and drill and bolt and glue a section of old tire tread you find on any high way or from an old tire you can cut with a sawsall to make a second custom set of jack spacers if your floor jack won,t allow the car to be lifted high enough, just be 100% sure the jack saddle spacers firmly attached and supported
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one of my old geezer friends found 4 of these plates for $1 each at a yard sale and used a large center bolt, two washers and his shop welder to make a custom floor jack spacer pad for both his floor jacks, I thought that was rather ingenious s
OK first you DON,T raise a car one corner at a time! you drive it up on the inclined ramps to get clearance for the floor jack then slide the floor jack with the spacer if your floor jack requires one under the center of the front (CROSS MEMBER) and lift the front and place BOTH front 12 ton jack stands, under the frame , wide spaced, then the angle of the frame allows you to either use a second floor jack or move the front floor jack to the rear frame of the car, and lift the whole back or move both floor jacks to the rear frame on opposite sides and place both REAR 12 ton jack stands, on the rear frame. now personally I usually leave the rear jack stands and the jack holding the rear up ,and the 12 ton jack stands on the front with the tires hanging just above the inclined ramps, that way theres almost less chance the car can fall, even if some component were to fail.
Ill ALSO point out I have and have always used two floor jacks, twin rhino ramps and 4 12 ton jack stand WHEN I was under the corvette I use those 12 ton stand on when I use a mechanics creeper as I don,t want to be doing bench presses with a vette!:


[b](3)theres several deals available, and the quality varies wildly, you'll need to shop,
http://www2.northerntool.com/auto-repai ... 144236.htm

this jack looks good in the info they posted, but if you can afford it ID buy two, so you can jack the frame with a buddies help with minimal frame twist.
I have two craftsman floor jacks and while they have worked well for years Id more than likely have purchased those if Id know about them at the time I bought them



http://www.eagleequip.com/page/EE/PROD/LI-LM/PAD-6000W
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IVE used them, their less expensive too buy and very easy too use but unless your doing mostly brake jobs and wheel and suspension related work and maybe oil changes their a P.I.T.A. or useless for many jobs and access under the car is very limited and unsafe in my opinion.

I still think the best value for most guys on a tight budget is purchasing (4) 12 ton jack stands , decent ramps and two floor jacks, you can do 90% of the stuff you want to do on a car if you've got a decent flat concrete pad with those and have well under $600 invested and its easily transported when you move, I used them for many years before I got my lift and still use them frequently today


http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?function=Search
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12 ton jack stands #34924

normally $80 for two, now on sale for $55 for two
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BTW Ive seen this style stand cause accidents several times, only an idiot in my opinion trusts his life too a 1/4" bolt of undetermined sheer strength, and thats ALL thats keeping those from dropping un-unexpectedly

theres always a small percentage of idiots with a death wish
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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: under car safety

Postby grumpyvette » November 22nd, 2008, 11:41 am

personal opinion!
that looks like an EXCELLENT WAY to have a car pre- set -up too fall off a lift, look at it this way,simple geometry says supporting each corner is far more stabile than ballancing the car fron the center even if the total foot print of the 4 jack stands was only equal to the single lift base, the lift is far less stabile than a quality jack stand placed under each corner of the car and you would be out of your mind to place the car that high on jack stands that are not anchored down,,so why would a lift thats not anchored down and less stable be a good option, one good shove and that cars over on its side, that and the fact theres little or nothing gained in access under the car with that lift, over 4 12 ton jack stands once the tires clear the floor by a few inches, and you can easily use a mechanics creeper to access most of it
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http://kwiklift.com/commercial.htm

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26&p=34#p34

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=98

$2k for the lift and ~$400 for the installation materials and tool rentals.
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thats $2400 (congrats on the nice lift and clean installation)
while thats impressive Im wondering how practical it will be, obviously what you use the lift for has a huge effect, and low ceiling clearance limits choices, but
while that looks fine for brake jobs IT appears theres very limited or no access under the car for exhaust and drive train work, unlike these similar price lifts that might have been,options
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http://www.eagleequip.com/page/EE/PROD/LI-SS/GLO-8000

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http://www.kwiklift.com/

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http://www.eagleequip.com/page/EE/PROD/LI-ETP/MTP-9F

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=98

READ THRU THIS THREAD, IF YOUR THINKING OF BUYING A LIFT
IVE been down this road with several friends,

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=98

DO YOUR RESEARCH< YOUR ASS WILL BE UNDER A CAR AND IF IT FAILS, AND FALLS ON YOU, THE LOW PRICE WON<T MATTER, save $1200 on the lift and then spend $30K in the hospital later as a result is not smart!
IF YOU CAN,T GET PARTS IN TWO YEARS, ITS GOING TO BE USELESS, LOOK FOR A CERTIFIED LIFT WITH A LOCAL DEALER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLUjq6ijvVc

a great deal price wise, YES but more than likely on IMPORT JUNK, thats NOT CERTIFIED, notice no mention of being a certified tested lift or long term local support or local instal available or an extended maintenance policy available, most 2 post lifts REQUIRE a 8" thick slab of reinforced concrete, on the base most common garage floors are 4" or less thick
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: under car safety

Postby grumpyvette » February 25th, 2009, 11:25 am

BTW having some jerk at a quick-lube or dealer screw up the adapter or filter is hardly a rare deal!
read thru the link on filters and the one on oil, its well worth the time

If your like most guys and can,t afford a true lift,or don,t have room, get a floor jack, 4-12 ton jack stands , or at least do yourself a huge favor and buy some QUALITY car ramps or weld some up yourself if youve got a welder and some skills, heres a bit of info on under car safety in my personal data base

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26

do some research and get some SAFE ramps or weld up your own, no sence getting hurt or makng life difficult.:thumbsup:
decent ramps m,ake oil changes far easier

generally the hotter the oil the thinner the effective viscosity, and yeah, draining it hot tends to carry more loose crud out as it drains, 10W30 means it flows like a 10 weight when cold and PROTECTS like a 30 weight will when its hot , the 30W oils of years ago thinned out with heat far more than the 10w30 oil of today, MODERN formulas are far more stabile in viscosity as the heat changes, oil generally doesn,t tend to increase its viscosity with increased heat , the rating of 10w 30 ,its NOT a dirrect representation of the expected viscosity at any temp, but its expected ability to provide protection to the bearings, and expected flow charicteristics.
keep in mind the ability of the thinner oils to protect bearings and reduce friction has made huge improvements over the oils available even 20 years ago, NASCAR engines run less oil pressure and thinner oils now than twenty years ago, and its resulted in better heat absorbsion and heat transfer, and bearing protection than the thicker viscosities of 20 years ago.
modern engines use tighter clearances and run at higher average temps to decrease emmissions and extend engine life expectancy.
change your oil and filter with almost any decent quality oil at least every 4500 miles and your very unlikely to have oil related problems


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/visc.html

http://www.atis.net/oil_faq.html

http://micapeak.com/info/oiled.html
C4 Corvette "Change Oil" Indicator Reset
The "Change Oil" indicator is reset by using a sequence of Driver Information Center (DIC) key presses as follows:


1. Turn ignition "ON", but do not start engine. (ALDL pin "G" should NOT be grounded.)

2. Press the "ENG/MET" button and release, then, within 5 seconds, press it again.

3. Within 5 seconds of Step 2, press and hold the "GAUGES" button. While the button is held, the "Change Oil" indicator will flash.

4. Continue holding the "GAUGES" button until the "Change Oil" indicator stops flashing and goes out, indicating successful completion of the reset cycle. This should take about 10 seconds.

If it does not successfully reset, turn ignition "OFF" and repeat the procedure from Step 1.

READ

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html

http://www.aloha34.com/information/oilfiltertable.pdf

first, your oil NEEDS to get to 213 degees MINIMUM before it can burn off water vapor from the engines, MOST synthetic oil WORKS AT ITS BEST in the 230deg-245deg range as far as lubracation and deposite removal goes. SYNTHETIC oil has no problems at temps up to about 260 degrees even long term but MINERAL oil can start to break down at temps above 250 degrees
heres a cheap little item that really works!
Image

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1734&prmenbr=361
it drops my oil temps about 10 degrees

I use puralator pure 1 filters or mobile 1 filters and mobile 1 synthetic oil 90%-95% and 10%-5% marvel mystery oil. ALL APPLICATIONS, read this http://www.fernblatt.com/longhurst/engineoil_bible.html
http://www.melling.com/engoil.html

http://www.melling.com/highvol.html
http://www.melling.com/highvol.html https://dallnd6.dal.mobil.com/GIS/MobilPDS.nsf/26b7c4b33367a4a086256665004e4266/61638dff7d0453b085256b8400618b40?OpenDocument http://www.shotimes.com/SHO3oilfilter.html

if you tend to change oil only once or twice a year than synthetic oil holds a slight advantage and Id use it anyway simply for its greater heat tollerance!


things to read carefully
http://www.triumphspitfire.com/Oiltest.html

http://www.shotimes.com/SHO3oilfilter.html

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/3837/oilprime.html

http://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html



http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/tenmythsaboutsyntheticlubrication.htm

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/


http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: under car safety

Postby grumpyvette » March 27th, 2009, 9:35 am

KEEP IN MIND THAT IF YOUR SHOPPING FOR A LIFT!
theres a significant percentage of SCAMS and FLY BY NIGHT OPERATIONS IN THE AUTO LIFT INDUSTRY
IF THE COMPANY YOUR DEALING WITH...

DOES NOT HAVE,their physical ADDRESS displayed,
THATS A HUGE RED FLAG.........PROBABLY an EXCELLENT indicator to avoid them


IF they DON'T advertize their lifts as
ALI certified/validated by ETL
THATS A HUGE RED FLAG.........

IF THERES NO LOCAL DEALER
IF theres NO LOCAL INSTALLER AND REPAIR
THATS A HUGE RED FLAG.........

TAKE THE TIME TO DO RESEARCH and FIND OUT WHAT SEVERAL PREVIOUS CUSTOMERS THINK, HOW LONG THE COMPANYS BEEN IN BUSINESS , ETC.


remember the price is only one factor, theres no gain in getting a good price on JUNK that can,t be repaired, something that parts are not going to be available for in a few years or something that will sooner or later get you killed, due to crappy workmanship or design or something being made out of marginally crappy steel, or thin steel to save weight but costing your lift strength......theres a GOOD REASON ITS CHEAPER, ITS WORTH A GOOD DEAL LESS AND IN MOST OF THE CASES, you TEND too GET what you pay for!
what have you gained if the damn lift stops working and you can,t get it repaired or if it fails and you or your car is seriously damaged or totaled, will that great low price ,off set ,being crippled for life or dead

RELATED THREAD
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=98
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: under car safety

Postby FRISKY » April 11th, 2009, 12:48 pm

^^^ I have never seen one of those before. Pretty neat! I could have used it a lot.
Image
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Re: under car safety

Postby grumpyvette » April 27th, 2009, 3:39 pm

once again a quick trip to the metal supply, some careful measurement and having a decent welder could make that top side creeper an easy weekend project, resulting in a custom built addition to your shops tools, and if done correctly you could improve on the strength and design features

BTW if you only have a 8 ft garage ceiling like some guys your options are limited, but heres two that work fine


http://www.kwiklift.com/Options.htm

keep in mind theres TWO versions, [COLOR="Red"]and options[/COLOR] a buddy bought the heavy duty version in black and LOVEs it for most jobs, [COLOR="DarkOrange"]he bought the HD version[/COLOR] because hes got a large 4x4 truck and the extra strength was almost mandatory, Ive used it and I would also suggest the HD version just because the extra strength might keep you safer, but at nearly $2k powder coated and delivered its almost up to the cheaper decent quality lifts, the reason my friend bought his was his garage has an 8 ft ceiling height

like the site says

WHAT SIZE DO YOU REALLY NEED?

Pick a KwikLift based on the empty weight of your vehicle, not GVWR . GVWR means Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. It is the total the vehicle would weigh if fully loaded with cargo and a few of your favorite 200 lb. friends. [COLOR="DarkOrange"]Generally, the GVWR can be 1200 lbs. more than the empty vehicle weight[/COLOR].
q
just keep in mind the kicklifts great for oil changes and clutch jobs etc. and much easier to drive onto, but the (4) 12 ton jack stands I used for many years have clearance advantages when your doing brake and suspension jobs and exhaust work and cost you about 10% as much

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=98

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=34924
Image

obviously there are home built options

http://mikemercury.home.att.net/ramp.htm
Image
Image
Image
Image


Image
Image
Image
you can just see those stacks and I can,t imagine what the weight is on a solid stack of plywood that thick...ID be amazed if each stack of plywood pictured, weighed less than 65 lbs
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: under car safety

Postby g10van8772 » May 12th, 2009, 2:10 am

well, I'm sorry to hear about the relative/hunting buddy. I've had a few close calls when jacking vehicle up, JUST got wheel off ground when whole thing keeled over.
One actual instance when I could have had a VERY bad day. I claim lack of sleep, and inattentiveness. major part of idiocy was Ex-brother-in-law, I just got sucked in. lessons learned there, still have my leg, still have my knee, and the divorce was final going on 6 years now.
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Re: under car safety

Postby joegagan » May 12th, 2009, 8:15 pm

i have been very careful, and have no near misses to report. but, as a precaution, when working in the shop late at night alone under a car i keep my cell phone predialed to 911 and near my head at all times. my thinking was, even if a transmission or something pinned me, possibly one hand could still hit the 'send' button.
Send a message to Washington, join SEMAsan ( http://www.semasan.com/main/main.aspx?I ... m/HomePage ), free membership. There is power in numbers, act now before any more more crap laws are passed. Vote the bums out in 2010!!!
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Re: under car safety

Postby grumpyvette » May 13th, 2009, 6:29 am

thats not a bad IDEA!
like having a fire extinguisher handy, you hope youll NEVER need to use it, but having the option handy sure could be important

BTW
http://www.gixxer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242261

read thru this, thread above, as its a good reminder about thinking thru the potential results of working around power tools, running engines etc.

Image
Image
Image
Image

ID bet these failed lifts were bargain priced Chinese imports , NOT a CERTIFIED AMERICAN MADE LIFTs
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: under car safety

Postby Doodad » April 30th, 2010, 11:51 pm

Ok some quick thoughts here..lets not forget Jacking location remember to jack your car where the seams are (how do I know?) I've had a jack go completely through the floorboard! Not only can it kill you but you'll wish you were dead when you blow through the bottom of the car, also only raise the vehicle on hard CONCRETE!! Jackstands and metal wheels on jacks can dig into Blacktop or softer surfaces causing them to shift postions. Always use redundancy it equals SAFETY the more safeguards you have the more chances you'll have to survive a muti- failure event.When a lift is not available I always use Jackstands on the corners then I take two jacks and and pump them up until they are just under the jackstands pressure.I work on commercial lifts and have seen lifts of 20K lbs have a double piston failure at the same time and come slamming into the ground.Its scary!! Thanks for reading, Carry On.
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Re: under car safety

Postby grumpyvette » September 22nd, 2010, 7:38 am

IVE GOT TO REPEAT THIS!!!
because I just got a call about a friend, that got a foot partly crushed when a car slipped of a floor jack,(being stupid and doing an oil change only using a floor jack)

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=34924

If your going to work under your car I hope you support the car safely, some of you might think Im old fashion but some repairs (even thou I own a LIFT) are easier to do with (4) 12 ton jack stands and a mechanics creeper, but for your own safety ID STRONGLY SUGGEST you buy and USE 4 of these 12 ton jack stands and work on a LEVEL CONCRETE FLOOR when ever you can, yes IM well aware that you can buy smaller ,less expensive jack stands, how much is YOUR LIFE WORTH!, if its worth a couple hundred dollars, and a few minutes of your time, to keep from being killed or crippled for life I figure its worth the time and money
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: under car safety

Postby Indycars » September 22nd, 2010, 11:44 am

It always good to hear these things, reminds me that it does happen.

When asked how much should I spend on a helmet......If you have a $10 dollar head, then buy a $10 dollar helmet!
Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: under car safety

Postby grumpyvette » October 20th, 2010, 12:18 pm

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=13354021

"Associated Press - October 20, 2010 3:15 AM ET

SAUGERTIES, N.Y. (AP) - State police say a 56-year-old Saugerties man was found dead after a car he was fixing dropped on him.

They say Edward Hayes' death was apparently an accident.

Investigator Mario Restivo says Hayes had supported the Dodge Neon with only a single jack and no safety devices when it fell on him in the driveway of his home Monday afternoon.

He said Hayes was pinned and unable to breathe.

The investigation by state and village police is continuing.






You'd think a guy with that much experience

would know better......

thats the problem!
most of us "KNOW BETTER", but we think it won,t happen to me!
Im only going to check something for 30 seconds..the jacks FINE!

WRONG!, its just that attitude that gets you killed!

thats why I frequently repeat the warning! I don,t think Ive ever gone a year without hearing about some guy getting crushed under a car!

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=1024&p=1894#p1894
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: under car safety

Postby grumpyvette » November 16th, 2010, 12:59 pm

if your thinking about a lift, do the research don,t just look at price

http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showt ... 1/#2003690

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=98

Image

any lift worth having will have this sticker, any lift without that sticker is more than likely import junk that can,t pass safety testing

watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLUjq6ijvVc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR9aDu_ud-g

HEY GRUMPYVETTE? I'm building a new garage and was thinking of getting a 2 post portable lift. Any pros or cons on this idea?

Looking at this one:
2 Post Lift




ok ILL ask?
whats the advantage of that lift over a more conventional lift that can be purchased for a similar price range from several sources,that can be mounted with mounting studs that anchor it more securely, your dreaming if you think youll be setting it up and tearing it down regularly, and if your thinking increased floor space, putting a car up and a second car under it actually provides more total floor space than moving the lift.
I spend almost two years talking with mechanics about what lifts to avoid, which lifts had the best features, what lifts were nice to work with, and the consensus was a 4 post makes a great storage lift and its easy to use but if your a mechanic a solidly built CERTIFIED Imagetwo post lift with clear floor space from a company that will service it and have parts is the correct route to go
Image

http://www.directlift.com/Pro-9D-Two-Po ... P53C8.aspx

Image

http://www.ben-pearson.com/baymaster-7cf_1023_p.aspx

http://www.ben-pearson.com/model-10ad-t ... 005_p.aspx
This subject appears to be one you’re passionate about Grumpy. I will certainly take your advice when I pull the trigger on a lift….


this is not personal or directed at you, just putting out general advice from many years experience,hoping to help the newer guys, avoid problems,because I'm just tired of seeing guys look 99% at price, not construction strength, safety features or operating features when selecting a lift,for most guys a lift is a huge major purchase and the one thing you don,t want to do is buy a lift that's not safe, one that has no parts support, or one that has a flawed design making it difficult to work with.

READ THE LINKED INFO
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=98
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: under car safety

Postby grumpyvette » April 1st, 2012, 12:09 pm

harbor freight has a sale , theres a discount coupon

nows a good time too buy 4 of the 12 ton rated jack stands they are one of the few real bargains at 20% off that flier has a discount coupon

http://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-jack-stands-34924.html

Ive use six I bought 15-20 or more years ago and found them a real asset to the shop

hey grumpyvette?
what the hell do you work on that needs 12ton jack stands? I work on some pretty big stuff and I still don't need 12 ton jack stands....


12 ton jack stands have a significantly larger base ,making them munch harder to tip over, the height to allow easy access under the car with a mechanics creeper and the strength to provide a decent safety margin, I cant do car push ups so a 600% safety margin is welcome

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=672&p=1039&hilit=jack+stand#p1039

Image

heres 12 ton rated stands next to typical 3 ton

Image


Image
IVE seen several of these style jack stands shear pins and drop cars, with zero warning, if you have some ID pitch them in the nearest dumpster after a couple good hits with a sledge hammer to prevent some trusting fool from taking and using them
heres some cheap ass failure prone 3 ton jack stands, trust me knocking the whole car over on those jack stands does not take a great deal off effort, and I would sure not want to be under the car on those stand if some moron slammed the door on the car hard, or your forced to use a breaker bar to loosen a frame mount bolt.

Image
I use a mechanics creeper frequently and the 12 ton jack stands allow about 22" of clearance while still providing stable support, something you can,t do with 3-6 ton rated stands as their base size is too narrow
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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