degree in that cam correctly



degree in that cam correctly

Postby grumpyvette » September 16th, 2008, 9:53 pm

now if your like most guys if youve never done it your thinking it a huge complicated deal, ITS NOT,just follow the instructions in the links, Id advise you read them all because some are more clear on some parts of the process than others and youll get a better over/all feel for the process. all you need is a degree wheel, a dial indicator , a solid lifter and a pocket calculator and its something you can do in about 15 minutes time.

NOW youll be asking WHY BOTHER?
well its RARE for the index marks on the timing gears and the cam index pin to place the cam lobe rotation EXACTLY where it was intended to be and a shift of only a few degrees can and does move the power curve a hundred or more rpm up or down in the rpm range. now thats not huge but in a few cases youll find the cams significantly differant than the specs indicate and you could easily be down 5-20hp or have it idle like crap, if its indexed wrong, Id be very surprised if some guys cars ran worth a crap or at all if you just slapped in useing the cam gear index marks.
and in one case I found the cam gear in a imported timing sets chain drive to be off almost 9 degrees, if you had installed that IM sure the car would run like crap, that cam gear was manufactured in INDIA and it was purchased at discount auto about 10 years ago, so there ARE crap parts out there in the market place.
BTW alot of cam drive gear sets come with 3 crank slots and 3 marks on the cam timing gears that need to match to index the cam and if you screw it up durring the install is possiable to totally screw up the relationship between the cam and crank, degreeing in the cam points that mistake out vividly

youll need a few basic tools and a good understanding of what your doing, but its certainly not all that difficult.

I was asked where to get a CHEAP degree wheel

here is one you can print out and save for engine builds on the engine stand

Degree_Wheel.JPG


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-62191

BTW you CAN advance or retard the roller timing chain its done bye drilling out the cam index pin hole in the timing gear and installing an off set bushing

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4760

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you could buy these from summit racing or similar parts from jegs
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Image this is 180 degrees out (the distrib rotor points at cylinder #6, so before you drop in the distrib rotate the crank 360 degrees bring both marks to the 12 o-clock location, then drop in the distrib pointing to cylinder #1, and adjust ignition timing from that point

http://www.summitracing.com/

http://www.jegs.com sells this KIT
Comp Cams #249-4796
http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp%20Cams/249/4796/10002/-1

and you can buy these

MOR-62191 $44 (wheel)

MOR-61755 $47 (SBC)
MOR-61756 $47.(BBC)crank sockets

SUM-900188 $17 (piston stop, head off)
SUM-900189 $6.95(piston stop, head on)

TFS-90000 $94.95 (degree kit)

youll also want two flat tappet solid lifters and two weak check springs

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http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=PRO%2D66838&N=700+115&autoview=sku
instructions

http://www.iskycams.com/camshaft.html

http://www.thedirtforum.com/degree.htm

http://www.ridgenet.net/~biesiade/camdegree.htm

http://www.hotrodder.com/kwkride/degree.html

http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/803.pdf

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/psp/camshaft.html

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Instructions/Files/145.pdf
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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: degree in that cam correctly

Postby grumpyvette » October 20th, 2008, 7:54 am

crower cams and howard cams sell lifters with holes machined in the lifter face,http://www.competitionproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=651080DL
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theres a small hole machined into the base of the lifter face that dirrects a constant stream of pressurized oil into the lobe/lifter contact area, thus theres never a lack of luberacant like could occure at low rpms with standard splash luberacation,(the main reason they tell you to break in cams at 2500rpm-3000rpm)
this works great on solid lifters but they can,t do that with hydraulics because the oil is used to floart the pushrod seat and take up lash, solids run lash clearance so they can use that method of extra lube

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

comp cams sells a lifter bore grouve tool

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that allows you to grouve the lower 1/2 of the lifter bore so the lifter oil passage sprays oil onto the cam under pressure

there ARE lifters in both hydraulic and solid lifter designs that have a very small flat ground on the lower outer 1/2 of the dia. that allows extra oil to spray as the lifter rotates in its bore, and an old hot rodder trick is to do the same thing with 600 grit sand paper laid on a sheet of glass and with a few passes you can do the same basic thing on standard lifters if your very careful
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: degree in that cam correctly

Postby grumpyvette » October 20th, 2008, 6:38 pm

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: degree in that cam correctly

Postby grumpyvette » November 14th, 2008, 1:52 pm

Image

the rocker stud failure could be the result of many things
but lack of oil flow, that allows the rocker ball to pressure weld to the rocker and snap off the stud is certainly a comon one, it could certainly be a defective stud,and that appears to be the case here as theres no indication of extra heat and the break appears to be a stress crack, or its very unlikely but, too much spring pressure,could contribute to the failure.
in some cases the pushrod was clogged, the hole in the pushrod didn,t align with the hole in the rocker or the lifter was defective and was not pumping oil, but in some cases its not paying attention when the valves are adjusted, and getting the rocker adjustment nut, too tight, because that limits the oil flow rates , up the pushrod, and the lifter preload is pushed too far, or clearance issues are certainly suspect


from the arp web site

Recognizing Common Failures

There are six types of metallurgical failures that affect fasteners. Each type has unique identifying physical characteristics. The following examples are designed to be used like a spark plug reading chart to help analyze fastener failures.

While few of us have access to sophisticated analysis equipment, a standard Bausch and Lomb three lens magnifying glass will generally show 98% of what we want to see. Several of the photos below have been taken utilizing a Scanning Electron Microscope (SEM) and are presented to simply illustrate typical grain configurations after failure.


Image

. Cyclic fatigue failure originated by
hydrogen embrittlement.

Some of the high strength “quench and temper” steel alloys used in fastener manufacture are subject to “hydrogen embrittlement.” L-19, H-11, 300M, Aeromet 100 and other similar alloys popular in drag racing, are particularly susceptible and extreme care must be exercised in manufacture. The spot on the first photo is typical of the origin of this type of failure. The second is a SEM photo at 30X magnification.

more info

http://www.arp-bolts.com/Tech/TechWhy.html

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5. Cyclic fatigue cracks propagated
from a rust pit (stress corrosion)

Again, many of the high strength steel alloys are susceptible to stress corrosion. The photos illustrate such a failure. The first picture is a digital photo with an arrow pointing to the double origin of the fatigue cracks. The second photograph at 30X magnification shows a third arrow pointing to the juncture of the cracks propagating from the rust pits. L-19, H-11, 300M and Aeromet 100, are particularly susceptible to stress corrosion and must be kept well oiled and never exposed to moisture including sweat. Inconel 718, ARP 3.5 and Custom age 625+ are immune to both hydrogen embrittlement and stress corrosion.
IF Im changing just the cam and lifters do I need to recheck the pushrod length?
JUST WONDERING,IF YOU HAVE STOCK LENGTH PUSHRODS,YOU MILL THE HEADS,USE THIN METAL HEAD GASKETS,WOULDN'T THIS PUT THE ROCKER ARM CLOSER TO THE CAM?THEN WHY DO YOU NEED LONGER PUSHRODS WHEN YOU INSTALL A BIGGER CAM THAN STOCK?YOU WOULD THINK YOU WOULD NEED A SHORTER ONE SINCE THE LOBE IS TALLER THAN STOCK AN THE ROCKER ARM IS CLOSER TO THE CAM BECAUSE OF MILLING & THINNER HEADGASKETS.



while your correct! the answers not always that simple because the cam base circle dia. on the new cam is frequently a differant dia. than the stock cam and the lifter seat height varies also, it will require verifyiong the correct valve train geometry.
you want the rocker to exert it force as much as possiable on the valve centerline to reduce friction and valve guide wear
YOULL NEED TO CAREFULLY CHECK YOUR PARTICULAR ENGINE!
heres a simple way to get close to the correct length
BUY ONE OF THESE
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http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=3567&prmenbr=361

after making sure the valve springs are correctly installed you drop the checker in place on the rocker stud and install your adjustable pushrod
adjust the length to fit and measure the resulting length if its within twenty thousands of the stock length its fine for most applications, if its more than 30 thousands long or short get the closest length set available

<b>btw, if your one of the people that still does not own an adjustable push rod! you can easily make your own by cutting a stock pushrod in 1/2 (2 pieces), removeing 1 inch from the total length an then with about 2 " of a 4 inch section of 3/16 or 1/4" thread rod installed and (in one section epoxy it in place leaving about 2" sticking out thread two nuts onto the thread rod and slip on the other end of the cut pushrod,(no epoxy) use the two nuts to adjust to stock length and let the epoxy harded in the one section[/color] now you can easily measure and order custom push rods useing the pushrod checker and adjustable push rod as tools
AND YEAH IT ONLY WORKS WITH THE CYLINDER HEADS ON AND THE INTAKE REMOVED BECAUSE THE HOLE IN THE CYLINDER HEAD that GUIDEs THE PUSH ROD WON,T ALLOW THE NUTS ON THE ADJUSTABLE PUSHROD TO PASS THRU, UNLESS YOU PLACE THE CUT ABOUT 1" from the UPPER END OF THE ADJUSTABLE TEST PUSHROD BUT I prefer to place the adjusting nuts centered as I like to watch for all clearances with the intake manifold removed while manually checking as I turn the engine over by hand durring assembly, and at that point, while checking all the clearances, I use test springs which apply very little load on the push rod</b>
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http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=3272&prmenbr=361

HERES OTHER TOOLS YOU MIGHT NEED
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SOMETHING TO READ
http://www.compcams.com/information/Products/Pushrods/
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CCA-7705 5.800 in. to 9.800 in. adjustment range, Master pushrod length checker 4 piece kit ... $78.69

here

http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/ctrp_0611_rocker_arm_valvetrain_geometry/index.html

http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/ctrp_0611_rocker_arm_valvetrain_geometry/roller_tip_rockers.html

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/FAQ/ValvetrainGeometry.asp

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/eb50232.htm

http://www.customspeedparts.de/content/en/technic/kipphebelgeometrie.php

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/camshaft_tips_definitions/index.html

http://www.eatonbalancing.com/blog/2007/12/10/rocker-arm-geometry/
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: degree in that cam correctly

Postby grumpyvette » November 25th, 2008, 8:54 pm

Understanding cam timing

read these links, posted below, its going to help you a great deal in both understanding and correcting your potential for valve train related problems.
push rods don,t just bend , rocker studs don,t just snap off, and valves don,t just hit pistons, valve springs don,t just bind, all these are symptoms of failure to verify the clearances and geometry, it takes hundreds of lbs of force to bend a push rod and, if your bending them, its almost always the result of valve train geometry or valve train clearance issues that need to be corrected. shimming valve springs will usually increase the potential clearance issue problem, failure to check clearances and geometry and degree in the cam correctly will tend to result in problems



viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1376

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=399

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm

http://www.howstuffworks.com/camshaft1.htm


http://www.oregoncamshaft.com/cam-basics.html

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/113_ ... index.html



http://www.auto-ware.com/combust_bytes/valvetiming.html

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/engine ... index.html

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
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Re: degree in that cam correctly

Postby grumpyvette » February 28th, 2015, 11:41 am

having the correct tool for the job helps most of the time, and while over all it gets little use compared to some tools its well worth owning.
btw the handles hollow so in theory you keep the three short fine thread bolts inside the handle that screw into the cam snout, and the red plastic cap , on the tool,helps prevent you from loosing those, in reality its crappy plastic so get a short bolt that fits the threads to replace it

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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-6 ... /chevrolet
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-9 ... /chevrolet
Ideally youll install the cam while the engines on a engine stand while using the correct tool to maximize your ability to guide it into and thru the cam bearings without scratching the soft bearing surfaces, use of a handle that allows control and leverage is a very good idea, and its far stronger than just inserting a long bolt will be. nicks tend to cause wear issues and lower oil pressure and this can effect engine durability

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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

User avatar
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida



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