383 building advice



383 building advice

Postby cornor » November 12th, 2014, 6:02 pm

Hello. I have a 383(385) stroker that I got a good deal on, and which I plan to look over and put together again during the winter, before I install it in my 70 corvette.

I have the following parts:

•GM 350 four bolt block modified for stroker crank. Newly machined 4.040
•Scat cast steel crank 9-350-3750-6000-
•Scat 6" I beam rods,
•Icon forget flat top piston +3,7cc,
•AFR 195 eliminator street heads 75cc part no.1038,
•ptp stainless steel roller rockers 1.6
•Comp cam XE294H hydraulic flat tappet cam,
•pro comp single plane high rise intake PC 22030
•AED 750HO double pumper carb.
•Compression around 9.5

I have never seen this engine running, but the guy I bought it from claim that it was tested in dyno to 520hp, but he did not have any print out of this.

My idea is to put this together to be a decent preforming street engine, possible with some tests at the strip.
I am wondering if you could give me a indication if these parts will be suitable for street engine as is, or if the cam I have is too radical for a street engine?. I would look into swapping for a milder cam and possible a dual plane intake, if this will give me a more street useable engine. I am hoping for 450-500hp if possible, while still having acceptable street manners

Alternatively I would also consider a switch to a hydraulic roller cam, but understand that this will also require change of quite a few other parts, and a higher cost.

I have a MSD ignition and Hooker Headers side pipe exhaust 2224-1 with 1.875" primary tubes and a 2,5" cambered pipe muffler.

At present I have M22 four speed transmission and a 3.73 rear ratio in the car. I may look into changing to a 5 speed Tremec transmission also during the winter for more comforting high way driving.

As this is the first engine I put together, I am hoping for some good advice specially related to the cam and intake selection, and any other stuff that stick out as mismatching for a street engine.


Thank you in advance for any advice.

Pal
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby Strictly Attitude » November 12th, 2014, 6:07 pm

ditch the procomp intake throw an Edelbrock air gap do the math an find a good cam for you want and run it.
"IF YOU CAN SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!"

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Re: 383 building advice

Postby cornor » November 12th, 2014, 6:33 pm

Thanks John, do you think the cam I have will work on the street, or would a milder cam be better to get more torque and hp at lower rev. ?

Camshaft Part # 12-254-3 Grind # XE294H-10
Duration @ 0.006": 294° / 306 Duration @ 0.050": 250° / 256°
Max Lift w/ 1.5RR: .519" / .523" Lobe Separation: 110°
Lobe ID#'s: 5449 / 5231 Intake Centerline: 106°
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby Indycars » November 12th, 2014, 7:36 pm


I think we need to know details about the car it's self. I can tell you it's beautiful, maybe you read Conor's intro. What does the car weigh, rear end gear ratio, trans model. Conor ..... I think it will be important for all that read this thread, they will need the basic details. The weight of the car, gear ratios and such will make a big difference in which camshaft you pick.

Car Weight
Rear Gear Ratio
Transmission with internal ratios
Budget (Just a general ideas. It always changes anyway)
HP Level Hopes
Skill Level
Shop and Tools Available ( Will some of your budget go to tools, like engine hoist or engine stand, dial indicator, etc )
Time Frame ( When do you absolutely have to drive it )


Let's don't get the cart before the horse.

IMG_3693ssm.jpg


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Re: 383 building advice

Postby 87vette81big » November 12th, 2014, 7:37 pm

cornor wrote:Thanks John, do you think the cam I have will work on the street, or would a milder cam be better to get more torque and hp at lower rev. ?

Camshaft Part # 12-254-3 Grind # XE294H-10
Duration @ 0.006": 294° / 306 Duration @ 0.050": 250° / 256°
Max Lift w/ 1.5RR: .519" / .523" Lobe Separation: 110°
Lobe ID#'s: 5449 / 5231 Intake Centerline: 106°

The cam is Racer perfect for me .
Likely not for you if wanting civil manners and nice smooth stock idle.
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby 87vette81big » November 12th, 2014, 7:40 pm

Nothing wrong with the parts build list.
What you have control over easy is the camshaft choice & intake.
Since your car us a manual trans there is really no limit.
Stock mild old man cam.
Drag Racer Hot for 10's or 9's.
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby Strictly Attitude » November 12th, 2014, 7:44 pm

Depends what you consider streetable. Also depends what traffic you drive in. A 383 with those heads you power goal shouldn't be too hard to find. I will mess with the math tomorrow for ya or go here and gain a whole bunch of knowledge tell you what you go there try to figure out a cam and I will tomorrow morning and we can compare results. Make sure you look at Grumpy's links.
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=10226
"IF YOU CAN SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!"

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Re: 383 building advice

Postby Indycars » November 12th, 2014, 8:07 pm


The Hydraulic Intensity is fairly radical at 44 degrees. It an indication of just how
fast the camshaft accelerates the lifter/valve. Read the description from the cam
card, that's got to make you wonder if it will live in a daily driver.

"For '58-'98 262-400 cid Small Block Engines w/ Flat Tappet Cam -
Pro Street/Bracket • Needs Good Intake, Headers, Gear & 3300+ Stall
"

Read this to understand HyInt
http://www.4secondsflat.com/Cam_Design.html

HyInt = Dur_Adv - Dur@050
44 = 294 -250

CompCams_HF_XE294H_519_523.JPG


This is the camshaft I'm using
Compare several camshafts and start noticing their numbers
My HyInt = 286 - 256 = 50

Crower_HR_00471_555_560.JPG

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Re: 383 building advice

Postby 87vette81big » November 12th, 2014, 8:25 pm

Strictly Attitude wrote:Depends what you consider streetable. Also depends what traffic you drive in. A 383 with those heads you power goal shouldn't be too hard to find. I will mess with the math tomorrow for ya or go here and gain a whole bunch of knowledge tell you what you go there try to figure out a cam and I will tomorrow morning and we can compare results. Make sure you look at Grumpy's links.
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=10226

The 1st thing I look at anymore is valve overlap.
If its less than 80 I don't want it.
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby grumpyvette » November 12th, 2014, 9:35 pm

cornor wrote:Thanks John, do you think the cam I have will work on the street, or would a milder cam be better to get more torque and hp at lower rev. ?

Camshaft Part # 12-254-3 Grind # XE294H-10
Duration @ 0.006": 294° / 306 Duration @ 0.050": 250° / 256°
Max Lift w/ 1.5RR: .519" / .523" Lobe Separation: 110°
Lobe ID#'s: 5449 / 5231 Intake Centerline: 106°


Id be VERY reluctant to run that hydraulic lifter cam for several reasons , your cars a bit too heavy, the 3.73:1 rear gears not a good match, for quite that much cam duration,the compressions a bit too low, the cast steel cranks not ideal for the rpms, (but will work) the cams duration in theory should allow you to spin up but flat tappet hydraulic lifters don.t generally stay under complete control over about 6300rpm and the added duration hurts low rpm pulling power
Id suggest you drop back to a crower 00304 FLAT TAPPET SOLID LIFTER DESIGN I WILL LINK TOO BELOW, OR THE CROWER 00471 HYDRAULIC ROLLER and use 1.6 ratio rockers on both intake and exhaust, its a solid lifter flat tappet with a bit lower duration and designed to run higher rpms while maintaining valve control, that will allow you to run a bit stiffer valve springs and ID use a rocker stud girdle
http://www.crower.com/camshafts/chevy-2 ... -core.html

http://www.strokerengine.com/SBCHeadsFlow.html
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby Strictly Attitude » November 12th, 2014, 11:27 pm

if you have a M22 "Rockcrusher" Muncie in that car you have a 2.20 1st gear and a transmission more designed to road race then launch off the line. What do you want that pull away from the light gforce or the highway passing see you later.
1st-2.20
2nd-1.64
3rd-1.28
4th-1.00

3.73 rear gear

So let's look at the two most important street numbers for you 50 km/h (31 mph) and 80 km/h (50 mph) the two most common speed limits in Denmark please correct me if I am wrong I am getting my info through the internet.

Right now at 80km/h you are at 5100 rpm in 1st gear assuming you have a similar to stock size tire.
which has you about 2300 rpm in 4th
So to me as a street car you want a power band that meets those 2 requirements also take into account the 50km/h speed and where you want to be with that. A car is a package. It's needs pick the camshaft. The following numbers are in mph but using a gear ratio calculator I figured them out. There are plenty of km/h calculators out there but this one is nice because it gave me a chart. 1 mph = 1.60934km/h

On a street car this is where I start my calculating.

RPM 1 2 3 4
500 5 7 8 11
600 6 8 10 13
700 7 9 12 15
800 8 11 13 17
900 9 12 15 19
1000 10 13 17 22
1100 11 14 19 24
1200 12 16 20 26
1300 13 17 22 28
1400 14 18 24 30
1500 15 20 25 32
1600 16 21 27 35
1700 17 22 29 37
1800 18 24 30 39
1900 19 25 32 41
2000 20 26 34 43
2100 21 28 35 45
2200 22 29 37 47
2300 23 30 39 50
2400 24 32 40 52
2500 25 33 42 54
2600 25 34 44 56
2700 26 36 46 58
2800 27 37 47 60
2900 28 38 49 63
3000 29 39 51 65
3100 30 41 52 67
3200 31 42 54 69
3300 32 43 56 71
3400 33 45 57 73
3500 34 46 59 76
3600 35 47 61 78
3700 36 49 62 80
3800 37 50 64 82
3900 38 51 66 84
4000 39 53 67 86
4100 40 54 69 88
4200 41 55 71 91
4300 42 57 72 93
4400 43 58 74 95
4500 44 59 76 97
4600 45 61 78 99
4700 46 62 79 101
4800 47 63 81 104
4900 48 64 83 106
5000 49 66 84 108
5100 50 67 86 110
5200 51 68 88 112
5300 52 70 89 114
5400 53 71 91 116
5500 54 72 93 119
"IF YOU CAN SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!"

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Re: 383 building advice

Postby cornor » November 13th, 2014, 1:26 am

Thank you for all positive feedback. I obviously have some homework and reading to do. The car is equipped wit the M22 transmission and the speed visa rpm seems to be fairly correct. In 70mph i have around. 3200 rpm. Thats why I would consider to put in a 5. speed to get a 0.64 fifth gear. weight I guess around 3000lbs. with alu heads,composite rear spring and without spare tire installed as I have it now.
speedlimits in Norway are as John say 50km,80km and 100km (62mph)on highways.

As I have all parts above I did not plan to spend too much more before putting the engine together, but I would spend another $1000-2000 for new cam + intake to get the engine more streetable. Of course a new transmission would probably be another 3-4000 if I buy a tremec 5 speed with installation kit so that will be something I need to consider carefully.

I have some winter months to do the swap and plan to have the car back in the road late Mach early April. I have most basic tools as engine stand, hoist and most normal hand tool needed, and I have also a engine shop who I can use for more complicated matters.

I will do some reading and come back with more info and questions. when I learn more.

Thank you all for exellent help and support.

Pal
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby Strictly Attitude » November 13th, 2014, 12:44 pm

My recommendation you might need a vacuum canister for your brakes they are cheap and easy to install I make one out of pvc and hid it in my fender. But this will be a fun cam on the street. My Isky is rated 2400-6600 and I can cruise on the highway fine at 1300 rpm with my converter locked. Just my .02 from looking at your transmission and setup. Will probably work well with the AFR springs that came with those heads you can go to the AFR site and check specs but would also check them or have them checked if possible. Run a good lifter don't skimp out on a lifter get the ones that have the oiling holes. I will run it through the desk top dyno tonight if I get a chance to give you round about idea. I run AFR 195 65cc heads on my 355 which is 9.6:1 and a 201535 isky cam. I chose this for you cause the math puts you with a 106 lobe and figured duration for your application at .050 to be Low 240s high 230s and got you as much reliable lift as I could. You could add some lift with a higher ratio rocker arm but I bet you would be happy with this.
Isky cams
PART NUMBER: 201532 GRIND NUMBER: 530-A MECH
ENGINE INFO: CHEVY SMALL BLOCK V8 265-283-302-307-327-350-400 CU.IN. APPLICATION:
SPECIAL REMARKS: SOLID PRODUCT USE: OVAL

RPM RANGE: 2300-6600
Valve lift is calculated with zero lash and rocker ratio of 1.5
INTAKE TIMING
DURATION: 270 deg.
OPEN: 29 BEFORE TDC
CLOSE: 61 AFTER BDC
CAM LIFT: .353"
VALVE LIFT: .530"
VALVE LASH: .014 HOT
.016 COLD

EXHAUST TIMING
DURATION: 274 deg.
OPEN: 63 BEFORE BDC
CLOSE: 31 AFTER TDC
CAM LIFT: .357"
VALVE LIFT: .535"
VALVE LASH: .016 HOT
.018 COLD

LOBE CENTER: 106 deg. OVERLAP: 60 deg. CAM ADVANCE: 0 deg.
THE ABOVE TIMING IS CHECKED AT .020 (OPEN) LIFTER RISE
.020 (CLOSE)

The following timing is taken at .050" lifter rise and gives a more accurate determination of camshaft position.
INTAKE
DURATION: 242 deg.
OPEN: 15 BEFORE TDC
CLOSE: 47 AFTER BDC
EXHAUST
DURATION: 246 deg.
OPEN: 49 BEFORE BDC
CLOSE: 17 AFTER TDC

RECOMMENDED ISKY CAM KIT PARTS AND SETUP INFORMATION

LIFTERS: 202-H LIFTER TYPE: SOLID
SPRING: 6105 TYPE: dual w/damper DIA.: 1.430" RATE: 330 lbs per inch
INSTALLED HEIGHT: 1.812" SEAT PRESSURE: 135 lbs OPEN PRESSURE: 315 lbs
COIL BIND: 1.120"
SPRING SHIMS: # 2
STEEL RETAINERS: 507-ST
TITANIUM RETAINERS: 60-TI
PUSHRODS: 203-HG TYPE: heat treated non-adj LENGTH: 7.781" DIA.: 5/16"
ROCKER ARMS: 204 TYPE: roller RATIO: 1.5
VALVE LOCKS: VL-32
VALVE LOCKS: VL-32
REV KIT:
"IF YOU CAN SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!"

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Re: 383 building advice

Postby cornor » November 13th, 2014, 7:15 pm

Thank you all for the good advices and information. I am trying to absorb all information and learn more. :)

Will a solid cam be ok for a street car with good reliability ?. What sort of intake would be suitable for street use. A airgap RPM ? I will try to check the springs on my heads and figure out if these will be OK to use. What about the 1.6 stainless steel roller rockers I have, will they be OK to use ?. I checked them and they are PEP rockers, which for me is a unknown brand, but I found this link. http://www.precisionengineparts.com/#!r ... 9/imagehba. I have the the stainless steel once in this picture.

Cam proposed by John Isky 530-A-MECH duration at .050" 242/246- valve lift .0530/.0535 LCA 106
Grumpy propose Crower cam shafts 00304 with slightly less duration236/244 and lift .522/.510 and LCA 110 ,
Will the Crower then be a more street friendly cam with better idling but lower power output ?
And how would the difference effect the power ?
Any indication to what power level and power curve these cams with a airgap intake will give me ?

If I look at the Crower 00471 HYDRAULIC ROLLER which Grumpy mentioned, I guess this not be compared directly to the solid cams ?, but how would that work out power wise compered to the two solid alternatives, and will it give me a more reliable set up for the street ? The roller cam set up I understand would be a more expensive alternative, but could that be a smart way to go for reliability ?

I am sorry if I ask a lot of questions, but this is all new to me and I will try to learn and hopeful make the right selection.

Regards Pal
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby cornor » November 13th, 2014, 8:01 pm

Hi again, while looking at the AFR web page I found some dyno results for the AFR195 heads on a 383 engine. Any of these results would be very good if I could come close to duplicate them.
They are using a Comp Cams 12-433-8 Hyd. Roller Cam, could that be a good alternative for me. Seems like those engines are making good power and torque over a very useful speed range from 2500-5500rpm.
Would this cam be quite similar in performance to the Crower 00471 that Grumpy proposed ? For me the data's looks quite similar but with somewhat higher lift on the Crower cam.

Or will the previous discussed solid cams to the same job at a lower cost ?

Document1.pdf


Regards Pal
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby grumpyvette » November 13th, 2014, 8:57 pm

cornor wrote:Thank you all for the good advices and information. I am trying to absorb all information and learn more. :)

Will a solid cam be ok for a street car with good reliability ?. What sort of intake would be suitable for street use. A airgap RPM ? I will try to check the springs on my heads and figure out if these will be OK to use. What about the 1.6 stainless steel roller rockers I have, will they be OK to use ?. I checked them and they are PEP rockers, which for me is a unknown brand, but I found this link. http://www.precisionengineparts.com/#!r ... 9/imagehba. I have the the stainless steel once in this picture.

Cam proposed by John Isky 530-A-MECH duration at .050" 242/246- valve lift .0530/.0535 LCA 106
Grumpy propose Crower cam shafts 00304 with slightly less duration236/244 and lift .522/.510 and LCA 110 ,
Will the Crower then be a more street friendly cam with better idling but lower power output ?
And how would the difference effect the power ?
Any indication to what power level and power curve these cams with a airgap intake will give me ?

If I look at the Crower 00471 HYDRAULIC ROLLER which Grumpy mentioned, I guess this not be compared directly to the solid cams ?, but how would that work out power wise compered to the two solid alternatives, and will it give me a more reliable set up for the street ? The roller cam set up I understand would be a more expensive alternative, but could that be a smart way to go for reliability ?

I am sorry if I ask a lot of questions, but this is all new to me and I will try to learn and hopeful make the right selection.

Regards Pal


all three cams will be functional choices but to maximize the power curve you generally don,t want to go much above or below about 8:1 dynamic compression or stray far from the power, and rpm band the cars geared for and the engines intake, heads exhaust etc. are designed to operate in. with only about 9.5:1 compression your limited in what you can do without over camming the combo.
you want to stay low enough to stay out of potential detonation but still retain good compression to build torque.
this threads on a related subject
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=10705
this threads got valve timing charts that can be very useful in comparing two similar cam valve closure points
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4299

there are quite useful ,cam selection soft ware programs that get you in the ball park, but the final selection is based on far more factors than most of those software programs address
http://www.camquest.com/
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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