383 building advice



Re: 383 building advice

Postby cornor » November 15th, 2014, 2:07 pm

Thank you Grumpy, I am trying to read and learn here, but it might take some time as there is a huge amount of information to read and absorb !. I can see that the cam's proposed will give me a dynamic compression of around 8, with my static compression around 9,5.
Would it be any use and advantage to increase static compression, by using a 0.015 head gasket ?. That would give me around 10 in static compression, if that is worth anything ?. In Norway we have 98 octane premium gas, which I think equal 93 octane in US.

I would look into using any of the three proposed cams, but I am not sure if the hydraulic roller cam will give some advantages over the solid cams proposed.
Will there be a issue with solid cams and wear due to modern oil without zinc additives ? I have seen some info advising to use nitited solid cams.

Will a airgap RPM intake be a good choice for my engine based on using one of the proposed cams ?.

Regards
Pal
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby grumpyvette » November 15th, 2014, 2:53 pm

for each full point in compression you generally gain 3%-4% in torque for a given displacement, or put a different way if your engine makes 350 ft lbs at lets say 3500rpm at 9:1 compression, it would be reasonable to expect it to make 7% more torque at 3500rpm , or 375 ft lbs if it had 11:1 compression

most, but certainly not all modern oil formulas are designed to work best with roller lifter cam engines, so obviously knowing which oil to use helps increase durability and prevent potential wear issues immensely.
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=9826

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=117

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=282

a roller cam has several advantages,in that it produces more lift and in theory ,EFFECTIVE air flow for a given duration but it tends to add $800-$1100 to the total build cost, the other advantage is that if its properly set up it can at least in theory both reduce friction and wear and give longer engine durability

Image
Image
Image

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3802

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1489

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3141&p=8382#p8382
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby Indycars » November 15th, 2014, 4:28 pm

cornor wrote:
Will there be a issue with solid cams and wear due to modern oil without zinc additives ?

Regards
Pal


There are oils out there that have the ZDDP that you speak of. Since they don't have to
meet OEM requirements for warranty purposed, then they can make and sell oils like they
did before. If you run a catalytic converter, then I think that's a problem.

I have the Crower 00471 hydrualic roller cam, but I'm using Royal Purple HPS 10w30 oil in
my engine.


http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/prod ... motor-oil/


Royal Purple HPS Series motor oil is specifically formulated to maximize performance and
meet the demands of high performance and modified engines. HPS is high performance
street motor oil recommended for vehicles no longer under manufacturer warranty and
for those seeking a higher level of performance and protection.

Royal Purple’s HPS is fortified with a high level of zinc/phosphorus anti-wear additive
and Royal Purple’s proprietary Synerlec® additive technology. This unique blend enables
HPS to outperform leading high performance synthetic oils and conventional lubricants
for both gasoline and diesel engines. Available viscosities include: 5W-20, 5W-30,
10W-30, 10W-40 and 20W-50.

Royal Purple HPS Series of motor oil responds to increased pressure with increased viscosity.
Improved sealing between the piston ring and cylinder wall maximizes horsepower and torque.
Its advanced additive technologies improve the condition of metal-to-metal contact under
severe load. The advantages are clear.

MORE INFO AT LINK ABOVE

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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby cornor » November 16th, 2014, 6:31 pm

Thank for your all good inputs Rick and Grumpy, much appreciated :) .
I have used some hours this weekend looking through Ricks thread about his engine building, and I must say it is very impressive and packed with good information for someone like myself trying to put together a engine without a lot of experience and knowledge. I think I will need to use the thread as a guideline and reference for my engine built up. From what I could see and understand you are happy with the cam selection and the car and I will consider using the same for my engine.
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby Indycars » November 16th, 2014, 8:49 pm

cornor wrote:Thank for your all good inputs Rick and Grumpy, much appreciated :) .
I have used some hours this weekend looking through Ricks thread about his engine
building, and I must say it is very impressive and packed with good information for
someone like myself trying to put together a engine without a lot of experience and
knowledge. I think I will need to use the thread as a guideline and reference for my
engine built up. From what I could see and understand you are happy with the cam
selection and the car and I will consider using the same for my engine.


You are the exact type of person I did all the work photographing and posting to
help and I wanted to HELP Grumpy and his forum. I could have finished my engine
at least a couple of months earlier, but it takes time to take photos, annotate
them, develop text and then post it all.

Nothing compared to the time Grumpy put into this forum !!!


So Many, Many Thanks for Your Comments, it makes the time I took all worth
the effort !

Now I don't want poop on your parade, but it might be the best money you ever
spent ...... Have You Had the Cylinder Wall Sonic Tested for Thickness ???

You should read this thread where Grumpy put the most feared three words
in engine building in my EAR ...... Have you sonic tested your block for
"Cylinder Wall Thickness" ??? Believe me I know how painful it can be. I had
spent a $100 in abrasives and 30 hours of vibrating :D labor to smooth the
outside of the block and then I did it all over again on the new Brodix SHP block.

Read this thread and see what you think.

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=3169&p=8487&hilit=should+have+purchased+a+Dart+SHP+block#p8487

FP01_BlockSmoothing_0227.jpg


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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby cornor » November 17th, 2014, 2:12 pm

Rick, the block I have is suppose to be a new block initally bored .030, and hardly used. The unfortunate was that the previous owner had the engine sitting outside for a while and when I opened the engine to check, I found corronsion on a couple of cylinder walls, and I had the machine shop machine it another .010, so it is now 4.040 dia. My machine shop stated that .040 was not a problem and the block was good, but I will check if they can do a sonic test, but I not sure the have the equipment to do this. I have allready purchased the new 4.040 pistons and rings, so I hope it is OK. It is anyhow a good advice to check this before I go futher. Thanks :)
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby cornor » November 20th, 2014, 6:53 pm

Hello again, while I am waiting for the block to be checked and hopefully be confirmed OK I am looking into the cam selection.
I think I would like to go for the hydraulic roller Crower 00471 cam recommended, and which I understand is the same that Rick have in his engine.
From what I can calculate and see this will give me around 8 in dynamic compression as per Grumpys recommendation, and a overlap of 69deg. which should be OK for a hot street engine if I have this correctly. Will my 1.6 roller rockers (PEP) work OK with this set up or should I aim for something else ?
Rick how is your experience with this cam in your engine, now after you have driven it for a while ?. I see that you are doing a lot of tuning and work with your carb now, but I assume you have been driving the car also, I saw the videos from the drag race, and that was nice. :)

Would a dual plane intake as the airgap RPM be a good choice on my engine ?

I will keep you posted when I have more info. It will take some time to get the needed parts from US. Even with airfreight which can be used for not too heavy parts, it will take around 2 weeks to get parts. We have some decent US car part shops here, but if you shall have something a bit special, you will need to get it from US.

Regards

Pal
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby philly » November 20th, 2014, 8:03 pm

a two plane intake divides the engine so that the runners joined to either half of a 4 barrel carb draw 180* apart.... its principle advantage is that there is no overlap of induction cycles; the interaction of one induction stroke on the next and its negative impact on idle and cruise vacuum , is negated. the downside is the runners must follow a more tortuous route from the carb to the intake port and the effective carb flow as seen by any cylinder is halved.

basically a dual plane intake (and the rpm air gap is probably the best of these off the shelf) is very much suited to street driving and performance while the single plane (and tunnel ram) intakes forego some of the street convenience to give you higher rpm power potential.

ive never run a single plane intake and have never caught myself saying "oh damn i wish i had a single plane for more power." but then again, it has to fit your combination.
-phil

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Re: 383 building advice

Postby philly » November 20th, 2014, 8:08 pm

based on the selection of the crower cam 00471 and the suggested redline of 6400rpm by crower, i would say you probably will make more power and torque and have better driveability in your intended rpm range with the dual plane setup and again the rpm air gap is probably the best off the shelf duel plane intake for small block chevies
-phil

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Re: 383 building advice

Postby Strictly Attitude » November 20th, 2014, 8:10 pm

I would have ran a roller too but would have been solid roller if it was in my budget. Which it wasn't due to other upgrades I made at the time that added up very quickly. You will need to replace the springs on your heads to the recommended spec. I would get a complete kit if possible.
"IF YOU CAN SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!"

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Re: 383 building advice

Postby Indycars » November 20th, 2014, 10:15 pm

cornor wrote:Hello again, while I am waiting for the block to be checked and hopefully be confirmed
OK I am looking into the cam selection.

Even stock bore blocks can have marginal cylinder wall thickenss, when exceeding
500 HP in a SBC. Look at my numbers and subtract .030 inches from the numbers
and you will see what I refer to.


I think I would like to go for the hydraulic roller Crower 00471 cam recommended,
and which I understand is the same that Rick have in his engine. From what I can
calculate and see this will give me around 8 in dynamic compression as per Grumpys
recommendation, and a overlap of 69deg. which should be OK for a
hot street engine if I have this correctly.

Pal ….. please post the numbers you are using for your Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR)
and be specific and detailed.

Yes the Crower has 69 degrees of overlap, that’s ground into the camshaft and can’t
be changed during installation. Only a new camshaft will change overlap.

It’s easy if you are close to the correct DCR to tweak it by adjusting the Intake Valve
Closing (IVC) angle. Check out the differences below in the graphic. Keep in mind that
you are giving up about 200-300 RPM in the low rpm torque. I wish now that I had used
the 2 degree retarded position, numbers in the yellow middle column. Keep in mind
that the gas I'm using is 91 octane [(R+M)/2], that's the best available pump gas here
in Oklahoma, USA.

viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458

DCR_Rick_Crower00471.JPG


Yes I'm using the Crower 00471 Crower and I love it, but I only weigh about 1800 lbs
and using an 200-4R automatic trans, but you have the M22 manual trans and clutch
that will compensate for the heavier car. I also have a very tall tire at 31 inches. I
went from 28 to 31 and that pretty much like going from 3.7 to a 3.5 rear gear ratio.
Not making a big point above, but it is background that applies to this post and our
situations being compared.


Will my 1.6 roller rockers (PEP) work OK with this set up or should I aim for something
else ?

Should work fine, but you will need to measure your “valve to piston clearance”. That’s
true not matter what camshaft you run. Not sure what size rocker studs you are running,
but 3/8 inch will definitely benefit from a girdle. Hopefully you have 7/16 inch studs,
again a girdle can’t hurt. I’m using 7/16 studs and no girdle, time will tell. I don’t expect
them to break, but there is more to it that NOT breaking, it’s called better valve train
control. Money sometimes dictates the decision.



Rick how is your experience with this cam in your engine, now after you have driven it
for a while ?. I see that you are doing a lot of tuning and work with your carb now, but
I assume you have been driving the car also, I saw the videos from the drag race, and
that was nice. :)

No better way to explain than an example. Some guy was taking pictures of my car at
the stoplight, I was in the turn lane. The turn lane leaves first here, so I blipped the throttle
(@1800 RPM) about 15 feet into the turn and the back of the car raised, the tires break
loose momentarily and then it settles to make the turn. Do I like this camshaft …..
HELLLLLL YESSSSS!!!!


Would a dual plane intake as the airgap RPM be a good choice on my engine ?

Yes it’s going to be your best option for your situation. Now if you were street racing for
money and ¼ miles times were in the 10’s, then a single plane might be in your future with
a higher revving camshaft. The only thing that matters is winning the race and getting to
work doesn’t matter or doesn’t apply.



I will keep you posted when I have more info. It will take some time to get the needed parts
from US. Even with airfreight which can be used for not too heavy parts, it will take around
2 weeks to get parts. We have some decent US car part shops here, but if you shall have
something a bit special, you will need to get it from US.

Keep in mind that there are different materials that you can purchase when buying a
camshaft. So every camshaft has several versions of the same grind, just difference
materials and different distributor gears. You will have to make sure that the cam gear
and distributor gear are compatible or it will ruin the cam gear and therefore the camshaft.
Grumpy will be able to post some good info for you or just do some research here.


Regards

Pal
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby Strictly Attitude » November 21st, 2014, 7:24 am

Don't forget a bronze distributor gear, a cam button, thrust bearing, and an aluminum timing cover I was going to use the cloyes cover with the built in cam button. That is why I did not go roller over solid there is allot of cost. You will also need a good set of pushrods for that cam. Not trying to discourage but make sure you get everything you need especially with a 2 week wait time.
"IF YOU CAN SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!"

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Re: 383 building advice

Postby philly » November 21st, 2014, 5:58 pm

i know you are already overloaded with information and reading material however rick created the single best guide for this procedure ive encountered on the internet... with many pictures! port matching intake manifolds to cylinder heads:

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5378&p=32456&hilit=port+matching+intake+manifold#p32456

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby Indycars » November 21st, 2014, 6:59 pm


Thanks you Sir Phil for the nice comment ...... you were Knighted by the Queen of England ??? ;)

Rick
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: 383 building advice

Postby philly » November 21st, 2014, 9:54 pm

the queen of england may be old, but like all older ladies she still has her secret ways ;)
-phil

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Re: 383 building advice

Postby Indycars » November 22nd, 2014, 9:55 am

philly wrote:the queen of england may be old, but like all older ladies she still has her secret ways ;)


I just had a very scary visualization! It's going to take awhile to get that out of my head! :D

Now back to the task at hand here, good performance.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conor,

Thought you might find the two simulation runs that I did for the Crower 00471
and the CompCams XE294. I'm still wondering if I made a mistake, but I did
spend 1/2 hour to just proof the numbers I used for both camshafts.

The CompCams sometimes does not add up exactly. They state the exhaust
duration to be 306°, if you check their numbers it's 305°, Intake is 293
Exh Dur = 41° + 180° + 84° = 305°
Int Dur. = 39° + 180° + 74° = 293°

I made a couple assumptions.
1.) Deck Clearance: ............020 inches
2.) Head Gasket Thickness: ...020 inches
Therefore Quench Distance: ...040 Inches
Static CR: 10.03

Compare_Crower00471_To_CompCamsXE294.JPG



I invite you to proof the 8 page report on the Crower 00471 engine below to make
sure the numbers used are correct. Any other camshafts you want to see?

SBC385-Crower00471.pdf


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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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