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preventing leaky head bolts/studs
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:43 am 
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Location: florida
many guys have coolant leaks from studs and head bolts,you don,t need that P.I.T.A.

guys! Ive YET to have a single stud or bolt leak!

its simple! run a tap thru the threads, test screw the clean/dry stud by hand to verify no clearance or binding then ,clean them and dry the threads on the block and studs,before you start the assembly, and just dip the total threaded surface on the lower studs course thread end of the stud that screws into the block into the correct sealant. spin it in your fingers slowly as you move the stud to the hole in the block to keep from dripping sealant on the deck,

thread it into the block full depth , back it out a 1/2 turn and let it set up for a few minutes before assembling the head gaskets and heads,but assemble the heads while the sealants still fresh/liquid, torque too spec and let the engine set for a few hours (preferably over night)
IF you get leaks, thats NOT NORMAL (leaks) and the liquid permatex stuff
http://www.permatex.com/products/Automo ... ealant.htm
or
http://www.permatex.com/products/Automo ... ealant.htm

I use looks almost black, with a slightly reddish tint, you clean both threaded components and then coat both the threads (hole and plug)with the liquid sealant, then screw the components together, and let it set up for an hour or so before adding coolant, if you use it on head bolts you clean the block threads with a tap, degrease the bolts then dip the bolt threads in the container and drop them into place and torque them in stages while wet during the first 20 minutes before the stuff has time to set-up but add coolant only after a few hours so it has time to set up.remember not to allow coolant to contact the sealant for a few hours



viewtopic.php?f=50&t=50&p=1253&hilit=+sealant#p1253

http://www.devcon.com/products/products.cfm?familyID=386

High Tack™ Gasket Sealant
Red colored, all-purpose sealant that holds even the heaviest of gaskets in place during assembly. Seals and bonds rubber, cork, paper, felt, and metal gaskets. Sets quickly to a very tacky film. Suitable to 500°F (260°C). Contains no ozone-depleting compounds. Resists gasoline, oil, kerosene,antifreeze, propane and butane.

the stuff works far more reliably than most thread pastes or thread sealants, it cleans ,off fingers with a scotch brite pad and gas or alcohol,....provided you have not let it set up on your skin very long, once its started too dry ...good luck

YES it works on BOLTS ALSO

head bolts #5, dip clean dry thread in

http://www.devcon.com/devconfamilyproduct.cfm?familyid=386&catid=69

or this

http://www.permatex.com/products/Automo ... ealant.htm

(NOT QUITE AS GOOD BUT STILL OK)

then insert and tq heads in place





use the correct stuff for the application, AND READ & FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS it prevents PROBLEMS


studs put less stress & wear on the block deck threads, and provide more consistent clamp loads, the 12 point, stud nuts and washers tend to have less clearance issues in tight areas, than the head on a 6 point bolt, and are less likely to round off as the tq is applied, but be aware that getting the heads up and out in a confined engine compartment is generally a P.I.T.A. over studs that extend up several inches past the block when fenders and brake boosters, etc. are in the way
thanks grump can you tell me anything about "Undercut" studs are they worth the extra $$$

that depends on the application their used in, the under cut studs maintain their clamp force, more consistently over a longer stretch distance, let me explain that a bit
if you use the standard , studs on a cylinder head the heads get torqued in place at standard temps, when the engine heats up the metals expand, and the clamp loads tend to increase a bit,when it cools the metals contract,and the clamp loads tend to return to original levels, this cycles the stress and clamp loads, on an iron block with iron heads and even with aluminum heads the standard non-under cut studs are fine in most applications,because BOTH the studs and the head gaskets are designed to work with this repetitive cycle, if you have an all aluminum block and heads your probably better off with the under cut studs due to the greater dimensional shifts as the engine changes temp.
either design will tend to keep the clamp forces in a usable and predictable range, but the non-undercut studs are less likely to maintain the same exact clamp forces over the temp shifts the engine sees between running and cooling cycles.
short answer, on a iron block engine ID just sellect the standard ARP studs and follow the installation info posted earier in the thread, keep in mind aluminum thread strength fatigues far faster than iron or steel and it requires about 2.5-3 times the thread dia. to depth ratio to equal the resistance to stripping threads in aluminum vs about 1.7-2 times the thread dia. to depth ratio to equal the resistance to stripping threads in steel or iron

YES it works on BOLTS ALSO

OLD POST COVERS THAT INFO


I can,t believe the stuff I see at times..in the car mags that are SUPPOSED to be articles composed by guys who know what they are doing!!!!!!!
I picked up a copy of one of the more common, chevy based magazines and theres PICTURES of a guy dipping head bolts in yellow weather strip adhesive to be used as a thread sealant on the bolt threads (its not designed to come in direct contact with oil and/or high heat coolant),and its not going to give the correct tq readings either, and on the next page the guys gooping, GOBS of clear silicone like youll use to seal aquariums or bathroom fixtures 1/4 thick on/around the intake manifold ports, NEITHER SEALANT is DESIGNED FOR or is LIKELY to perform correctly IN EITHER APPLICATION, and WHERE does this guy think all that excess silicone will go once the intakes torqued down????
theres only two high probability's, it will flow into the port where it will eventually harden and get sucked into the cylinders or it may hang there causing a restriction in the port, or if it flows down, it gets into the lifter gallery where its eventually going to get into the oil pump pick up screen, restricting or blocking oil flow
i would not let these guys fix a flat tire let alone work on MY ENGINES all I can do is shake my head and wonder who if ANYONE screens these articles

always use the manufacturers suggested installation instructions, as some applications or gasket types REQUIRE differant lubes or sealants but heres a rought guide


head bolts #5, dip clean dry thread in
http://www.devcon.com/products/products ... milyid=386

or this
http://www.permatex.com/products/Automo ... ealant.htm
(NOT QUITE AS GOOD BUT STILL OK)

then insert and tq heads in place


head gaskets #3
main bolts #2
rod bolts #2
oil pump stud and nut #4
oil pan bolts #5
oil pan gasket #6
cam spocket bolts #4
timing cover gasket #6
timing cover bolts #1
intake bolts #1
intake gasket #6
thermostat housing bolts #5
thermostat housing gasket (also do you really need it) usually yes #6
Exhaust manifold/header bolts #1
Exhaust manifold/header gaskets #3
Water pump bolts #5
water pump gaskets #6
fuel pump #6
crank/damper bolt #1
Torque converter bolts #4
flywheel/flexplate bolts #4
bellhousing bolts #2

1 antiseize
2 oil or ARP thread lube
3 copper coat spray gasket sealer or apply dry in some cases (see manufactures suggestions)
4 loctite (red or blue depends on application ,read the lables)
5 http://www.devcon.com/products/products ... milyid=386

Fast-drying all-purpose sealant dries to a highly tacky, non-brittle film. A reliable general adhesive.Remains effective under temperatures of -65°F to 500°F (-54°C to 260°C). Resists gasoline, oil, antifreeze, axle lube, kerosene, propane and butane. Level 3*

6 black high temp RTV


use the correct stuff for the application, AND READ & FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS it prevents PROBLEMS

_________________
" IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!


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Re: preventing leaky head bolts/studs
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:30 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:40 pm
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Location: florida
keep in mind if you follow that info posted above and still have a head bolt leaking coolant, theres also the chance the coolant is NOT seeping past the bolt threads but from either a defective head gasket or a cracked cylinder head casting,or the bolt thread is cracked in the block, which would explain why the sealant on the thread repairs were worthless in stopping the coolant flow

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" IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!


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Re: preventing leaky head bolts/studs
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:31 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:40 pm
Posts: 5141
Location: florida
these look great, and theres little doubt they are a quality tool


1: http://www.emaxaction.com/cdi1503mfrmh.aspx
2: http://www.toolsource.com/torque-wrench-microadj-metal-handle-20150-ftlbs-plain-head-p-95221.html


CONSISTANCY and REPEATABILITY ,rather than exact torque, is the key, if your off a ft lb its not catastrophic.
Ive used both a SEARS and a HOME DEPOT TQ WRENCHs FOR MANY YEARS. built over 150 engines and had zero problems

consistant technique and consistancy in the way you lube and work the torque loads up in stages and having the bolts and studs lubed and cycling, the bolt/stud up to the recomended tq and loosening it and repeating that several times tends t0o give consistant results, USE ARP FASTENERS


http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100058237

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00944595000P?vName=Tools&cName=Mechanics+Tools&sName=Torque+Wrenches

btw rod bolts SHOULD have a stretch gauge used but its not 100% mandatory, cycling them up to spec and releasing the tq then repeating several times with a tq wrench, following the APR instructions gets you very consistant results IVE checked the tq wrench results with the stretch gauge

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=ARP%2D100%2D9942&N=700+115&autoview=sku

worth reading

http://blogs.hotrod.com/6244144/editori ... index.html

_________________
" IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!


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Re: preventing leaky head bolts/studs
PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:40 pm
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Location: florida
IF your going to use ARP main cap studs THE TORQUE SETTINGS ARE DIFFERANT than the orriginal BOLTS, the STUDS ARE STRONGER, BUT,you might also consider that main studs generally install after cleaning the threads in the block with a tap,blowing them dry with high pressure air, oiling the studs course threads with the thread sealant and fine threads end with the ARP thread lube, when you screw them into the block the full thread depth,by hand, then get backed out one turn, the main caps installed and the nuts torqued in stages to seat and hold the main caps, now LOOK at those STUDS the end in the block threads is SAE COURSE thread, the end your torqueing the nut on is SAE FINE THREAD with a much differant PITCH that requires less tq to give the same clamp loads
Image

Image
http://www.arp-bolts.com/catalog/Catalog.html

Why do they get backed out by one turn? I'm trying to think of the physics behind it, but I can't think of any good reason. What is the physics answer, Grumpy?

the threads must bear evenly and align correctly with the studs centerline, for the stud to apply max loads over the total threaded surface ,the threaded section must be under tension alone and engage the total threaded surface in the block, if the stud is torqued into place, youve preloaded the threads bearing the load and they are partly under compressive loads ,your basically jacking the bottom of the threaded hole away from the threaded section, and appling THOUDANDS of lbs of extra stress to the blocks web area if you torque the threads to the same 100 ft lbs the original bolts were tightened to, the threads in the block will now have added stress once the full tension loads on the studs and main caps is applied by torqing the nuts on the studs ,theres added stress on the block, if the studs have bottomed out and are pushing on the bottom of the threaded hole making the block web area more likely to crack or the crank saddles to distort.
keep in mind FACTORY BOLTS are made slightly shorter to PREVENT the bolt tip bottoming out in the hole, but bolts cause wear on the threads because they are tightened while the bolts still advancing deeper into the threaded block, studs cause far less wear because they fully engage the threads bearing the loads before the tensive load is applied

heres what ARP says
"STUDS vs. BOLTS

ARP recommends the use of main studs over bolts whenever possible for several key reasons. First is the ability to obtain more accurate torque readings because studs don’t “twist” into the block. All clamping forces are on one axis. By the same token, there is less force exerted on the block threads, which contributes to improved block life (very critical on aluminum blocks). Finally, there are factors of easier engine assembly and proper alignment of caps every time"

ARP's instructions (for head studs)state that you should thread the studs into the block until they're hand-tight, but with the head on the block, this is difficult. Fortunately, ARP was thoughtful enough to incorporate a fitting for an Allen wrench into the head of each stud. So, using an Allen wrench, I threaded the studs into the head until I could no longer turn the wrench with two fingers. This method seems to have worked nicely

1. Clean and chase appropriate threads in
block to ensure proper thread engagement
and accurate torque readings.
2. All hardware (and caps) should be
cleaned and inspected prior to installation,
looking for any shipping damage or defects.
3. Screw studs into block, finger tight
ONLY. For permanent installation, apply
Loc-tite (or similar adhesive) sparingly
to threads. Be sure and install the caps
promptly before the cement sets to prevent
misalignment of studs in block.
1. Clean and chase appropriate threads in
block to ensure proper thread engagement
and accurate torque readings.
2. All hardware (and caps) should be
cleaned and inspected prior to installation,
looking for any shipping damage or defects.
There are a number of important considerations
when installing ARP main studs.
3. Screw studs into block, finger tight
ONLY. For permanent installation, apply
Loc-tite (or similar adhesive) sparingly
to threads. Be sure and install the caps
promptly before the cement sets to prevent
misalignment of studs in block.

First and foremost is making sure the
block and studs are as clean as possible.
Foreign matter and debris can easily affect
the quality of thread engagement and
cause erroneous torque readings. Do not
re-cut threads in the block – use the special
“chaser” taps as listed on page 87 of this catalog.
This will preserve the integrity of the
threads and provide better engagement.
Calibrate your torque wrench – even new
wrenches have been known to be off by as
much as 10 foot pounds! Use consistent
tightening techniques.
4. Install main caps, checking for binding
and misalignment. Lubricate threads, nuts
and washers with oil or ARP moly assembly
lubricant before installation. Note that torque
specs will vary by lubricant. Moly lube is
most consistent. Have block align honed.
5. Using the instructions provided with
the studs, tighten the nuts to proper
torque values three times. NOTE: If using
Loc-Tite or similar cement, proper preload
must be achieved prior to it setting up.




http://www.arp-bolts.com/FAQ/FAQ.html

I usually use this sealant (sparingly)on the course ends of main cap studs that screw in hand tight, and ESPECIALLY on head studs that enter water jackets



http://www.permatex.com/products/Automo ... ealant.htm



Image
Image

both of these work great at sealing head bolt threads, and freeze plugs etc.




keep in mind the course thread section is not being screwed in or the threads moved as the nut on the fine thread upper end is torqued to spec. and that thread requires the ARP thread lubricant to get the correct stretch and that stud needs to be cycled up to full torqure then released and retorqued,a minimum of three times to get the stretch/tq correct

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" IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!


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Re: preventing leaky head bolts/studs
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:53 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:40 pm
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Location: florida
MOST SENSORS AND PLUGS ARE THREADED FOR NPT

THREADS with NPT (national pipe thread)thread sizes

these are two sealants I use

http://www.permatex.com/products/Automo ... lant_b.htm

http://www.permatex.com/products/Automo ... ealant.htm

http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/npttap.htm

http://www.cutting-tool-supply.com/Tech ... VsNPTF.htm

NPT Vs. NPTF Taper Pipe Threads

The two most common taper pipe threads used in the United States are NPT and NPTF. Applications range from electrical conduits and hand railings to high-pressure pipe lines that carry gas or caustic fluids. NPT threads are for mechanical or low-pressure air or fluid applications and require the use of sealing compounds like Teflon tape, to provide the seal. When the application is more critical, and the sealing compound may fail due to high heat or pressure, NPTF Dryseal threads are used. This mechanical seal is produced by the mating and slight crushing of the threads when a wrench is applied to tighten the fittings.

Visually, both threads appear to be identical. Both have a ¾” taper over one foot of length. Both have the same pitch diameter at the top of the hole of internal threads or end of the pipe on external threads, and both have the same thread lengths or depths. However, there is a subtle difference in the thread form that differentiates the two. The major and minor diameters of both threads differ slightly. With NPT threads, after a wrench is applied, slight spaces at the major and minor diameters may exist that would allow the assembly to leak and therefore a sealing compound is used to fill any gaps. On the other hand, NPTF threads are designed to ensure that sufficient crushing of the entire thread form will take place to produce a mechanical seal.

How does the difference in thread forms effect the tooling used to produce NPT and NPTF threads? Taps are available for both NPT and NPTF threads having the appropriate form to produce each type of thread. Since NPT threaded parts require sealing compounds, it is acceptable to use an NPTF tap for NPT applications. However, NPT taps cannot be used for NPTF applications, as it will likely produce a thread that will leak. The same is true of external threads. In most cases the tap drill is the same for both forms.

The most significant difference in the two threads is the inspection required. Since sealing compounds will be used for NPT threads, only a single plug with a step, known as an L1 plug (internal thread) or a single thin L1 ring (external) are required to check size. However, since the taper and the position of major and minor diameters are so critical to the sealing of NPTF threads, the additional threads in the assembly known as L2 and L3, and the major and minor diameters are inspected with either special plug or ring gages.

_________________
" IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!


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