Machine Work Costs



Machine Work Costs

Postby Indycars » June 17th, 2010, 6:02 pm

Trying to fine tune the total cost for this engine. What do you think, have I missed anything for the machine work required for this level of engine???

If you need a summary from my other posts, here it is
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3141

This is what I have in mind at this point:
- Max RPM = ~6200
- Use pump gas
- Intake Manifold Type = Dual Plane.....probably
- Aluminum Heads
- Compression Ratio = ~ 10:1
- Rotating Assembly from Scat, Eagle or Ohio Crankshaft for a 388
- Late 60's, Chevy 350 with 4 bolt main block
- Block as been bored far enough to determine what piston size to purchase (0.060 over size)
- Street Solid Roller with lift about .525 to .550, Duration = ???
- Car weights 1800 lbs w/ TH350 Automatic (To be rebuilt and torque converter purchased with stall in 2400-2800 range)
- Budget = $4500-$5000

Machine Work
Bore Block 0.060 - $144
Balance Engine - $150
Deck Block & Set Height - $100
Flycut Double Notch Piston - $112
Hot Tank Block - $60
Install Cam Bearings - $25
Install Freeze Plugs - $20
Line Hone Main - $150
Magnaflux Block - $35
Deck Plate Hone Cyl - $25
File Fit Rings - $25

Total Cost = $846

Any suggestions???


Rick
Rick
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Machine Work Costs

Postby grumpyvette » June 17th, 2010, 7:37 pm

do you have any idea as to the actual cylinder wall thickness after a .060 bore & hone on YOUR block?
If you don,t ID ask the machine shop to sonic test each bore

if its under .180 Id suggest filling the blocks coolant passage surrounding the bores up to the lower edge of the BRASS freeze plugs as that helps cylinder wall rigidity and ring seal,
ID strongly suggest use of a 7-8 quart oil pan and windage screen, and arp main studs on the caps sure won,t cost all that much more before its line honed, ID suggest clevite (H) bearings, as they have a fairly hard surface and beveled edges designed for high loads, if its bore wall at any point is under .120 I'd suggest looking for a different block,as its rather pointless to put hundreds of dollars in machine work and hours of prep work in a block that has a significant chance of eventually cracking under stress.
most guys who are just getting into hot rod engines use OEM production blocks and those work out reasonably well for the average guy who,s idea of a powerful engine is just adding a cam and intake and headers, but once you get into building a real race type engine that exceeds about 500 hp , you will quickly find the machine work costs,and block rigidity issues, with properly preparing a stock block, especially if you add splayed caps ,can easily approach or exceed the cost of the far stronger DART BLOCKS with their much thicker casting and more precise machine work
and before you dismiss this friendly advice get out a micrometer or feeler gauge and look at just how thin your sonic test results show your bore wall to be , and remember it will be hit with several hundred PSI pressure thousands of times an hour then think about how long it take you to bend a paper clip back and forth until it fails
Image
Image
these links and the pricing and info in them may help


read these two threads below first
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=321&p=2931&hilit=track+notes+pad#p2931

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=976&p=1706&hilit=epoxy+shot#p1706

http://www.rebelrebuilders.com/machine_work.htm

http://www.circletrack.com/howto/4661/index.html

http://www.rpmmachine.com/machine-work.shtml

http://www.steveschmidtracing.com/shop- ... rices.html

http://www.budsmachine.com/pdf/budspricesheet_0508.pdf

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=125

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=65

I think youll find these are about ball park prices for labor, you may get better or worse pricing, but its the QUALITY of the work done more than the pricing thats the great concern, as you can get more money but careless machine work quickly ruins parts

Machine Shop - Labor Prices
Head Work
V-8 Valve Grind (Pr) $120.00
Pro Sportsman Valve Grind & Blend (Pr) $250.00
Competition Valve Grind (Pr) $350.00
Grind Valves (Set) $ 40.00
Back-Cut Valves (Set) $ 20.00
Surface Heads (up to .020) (Ea) $ 25.00
O-Ring Heads (.041 wire) (Pr) $120.00
Cut Heads for Loc-Wire (Pr) $120.00
Cut for Teflon Seals (Pr) $ 32.00
Cut for Large Springs (Pr) $ 32.00
Mill & CC Heads (Pr) $100.00
Clean Assemble Set Spring Height $ 80.00
Cut for Seats (1st seat) $ 30.00
Cut for Add'l Seats (2-7) (Per Head) $ 20.00
Hone Guides (Ea) $ 2.00
Install Guides (Ea) $ 5.00
Mill Int. or Ex. Side (Per Surface) $ 5.00
Angle Mill Head Correct Int. Side & Ream Head Bolt Holes $200.00
Clean Heads (Ea) $ 20.00
Custom Machine Work (Hr) $ 60.00
Head Repair - Aluminum Heads Per Quote

Block Work
Bore V-8 Block (up to .060) $120.00
Pro Sportsman Hone (with plate) $250.00
Competition Hone (with plate) $350.00
Finishing of Custom Unfinished Race Block Per Quote
Align Hone $125.00
Block True/Square Deck (up to .020) $185.00
Deck Heights over.020 Removed By Quote
Install 3 center 4 Bolts Caps $350.00
Install 5 Caps $500.00
Sleeve Cylinder Bores (Ea) $ 60.00
Install Cam Bearings $ 30.00
Machine / Align Bore for Big Ford Cam Bearings $600.00
Big Ford Bearings $125.00
Hone Small End to Float Pin (Ea) $ 5.00
Hone Big End to Resize (Ea) $ 6.00
Rebuild Rods (Ea) $ 10.00
Replace & Hone Pin Bushings (Ea) $ 10.00
Balancing V-8 Assemblies (Heavy Metal to Balance Additional Time & Material) $250.00
Balancing Flywheel & Pressure Plate $ 75.00

Pro Sportsman Porting Work
Gasket Match Intake Side (Pr) $125.00
Gasket Match Exhaust Side (Pr) $125.00
Bowl Blend (Pr) $150.00
Polish Chambers (Pr) $285.00
Intake Match, Bowl Blend, Polish Chamber& Exhaust Port (Pr) $650.00
Full Competition Port & Polish (Pr) $1,100.00
Port Welding to Reshape (Per Hr.) $ 80.00

Crank Grinding
Index Rods - Grind Mains $100.00
Polish Only $ 50.00
Offset Grind for Stroker $250.00



BTW heres some quoted cost another guy posted

Hello all, just got a call back from my machinist. The following are the prices for preping my 1988 454 4 bolt main BLOCK. Looking for opinions on his prices.
Freeze pugs brass $20.00
Freeze plug install $ 15.00
Hot tank block $75.00
Clean oil gallies $ 15.00
Bore .030 over & torque plate hone $350.00
Cam bearings $ 30.00
Cam bearing remove & install $75.00
Line bore inspection $25.00
Mill/deck block off mains if nec. $ 225.00
Remove one broken head bolt clean existing thread $35.00
Install insert if threads not good $50.00
Total $ 915.00 ??????
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: Machine Work Costs

Postby Indycars » June 23rd, 2010, 9:17 pm

do you have any idea as to the cylinder wall thickness after a .060 bore & hone on YOUR block?
If you don,t ID ask the machine shop to sonic test each bore
if its under .180 Id suggest filling the blocks coolant passage surrounding the bores up to the lower edge of the BRASS freeze plugs as that helps cylinder wall rigidity and ring seal,

Sorry life has gotten in the way or I would have responded sooner.

Block Casting #: 3970010 (1968-1979, Depending on who you trust)
Block Casting Date: L118 (Dec-????)

I'm only hoping that this block might be better capable of a 0.060 bore. Has your opinion changed at all???

It would seem to me that the most help is needed at the top of the cylinder, can the top be filled to some level if needed???

BTW, do you often add comments after your initial reply??? Is that why you use colors???

Thanks again Grumpvette!!!

Rick Miller
Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Machine Work Costs

Postby grumpyvette » June 24th, 2010, 9:16 am

if I think of something later, that I forgot to post, I sometimes go back and add info to a reply for the benefit of anyone reading or re-reading thru the thread again, later I use color to bring out the more important points discussed

since a very high percentage of the heat an engine generates emanates from the upper 2.5" of the cylinders bore and valve train you generally can,t fill the upper cylinder coolant passages without significant reduction in cooling efficiency, but shortening the length of the un -supported cylinder wall does tend to reduce cylinder wall flex

read this again

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=976&p=1706&hilit=epoxy+shot#p1706

keep in mind that the aftermarket blocks have significantly thicker cylinder walls that easily allow larger bore size without thin cylinder walls


read thru these

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=47

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=125

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=976

when you have a block magnetically or dye checked for cracks , and sonic tested for bore wall thickness, don,t forget to check lifter bores, and lifter gallery areas, and main cap webs etc. just because its not easy to access does not mean cracks can be ignored
Image

obviously you don,t need to deal with this, the result of several factors but too thin cylinder walls added to the problem

Image

BTW heres some quoted cost another guy posted

Hello all, just got a call back from my machinist. The following are the prices for preping my 1988 454 4 bolt main BLOCK. Looking for opinions on his prices.
Freeze pugs brass $20.00
Freeze plug install $ 15.00
Hot tank block $75.00
Clean oil gallies $ 15.00
Bore .030 over & torque plate hone $350.00
Cam bearings $ 30.00
Cam bearing remove & install $75.00
Line bore inspection $25.00
Mill/deck block off mains if nec. $ 225.00
Remove one broken head bolt clean existing thread $35.00
Install insert if threads not good $50.00
Total $ 915.00 ??????
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: Machine Work Costs

Postby Indycars » June 28th, 2010, 8:06 pm

I had a Sonic Test done on my block and this is how the machinist described the process.

He checks every cylinder from top to bottom in one continuous motion. He does this at each of 4 positions; 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock. When he finds a location that is marginal, then he checks again on either side the thin location. For example on cylinder 1, he found at 6 o'clock 0.094" so he checked also at 5 & 7 o'clock and it was 0.220" and 0.229"

Below are the results. It certainly went below the 0.200" number, but it was always between adjacent cylinders and not on a thrust face. Cylinder number 4 has the single lowest number at 0.064", but on either side its 0.221" and 0.124". The lowest thrust face thickness was 0.220" on cylinder 8.

It never seems to be a black & white decision. I didn't think to ask at what height in the cylinder the thin locations were. And does the thrust even have much to do with the stress on the cylinder walls, is it more about the combustion pressures that are being exerted equally in every direction. The closer the thin section of the cylinder wall is to the top of the cylinder, the worse it would be for the engine......right??? Makes me wonder if I should have purchased a Dart SHP block for about $1500, I will have close to $900 in mine by the time it's done. I may have to go that route anyway, what do you all think, can I use my block for an engine that putting out 450-500 hp with 10:1 CPR, Max RPM=6400???
SonicTest01.jpg
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Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Machine Work Costs

Postby grumpyvette » June 29th, 2010, 11:05 am

that's a hard call, in that all your thrust faces are over .200, and you've obviously already spent a good deal on the block, and most of those readings are good for a stock block that's been bored and I don,t know where (vertically) on the cylinder wall, the thin section is in the cylinder wall are located, if its at the lower edge of the cylinder, filling the block up to the freeze plugs, up over the thin section adding support, might be enough to support and strengthen the wall, personally Id suggest you get out a .060 feeler gauge
Image

and look at its edge carefully, I think you'll find that anything close to .060 is darn thin, why not talk with your machinist and get his input then also ask about sleeving that #4 cylinder?
having several other wall thickness readings in the under .100 range on non-thrust bearing walls is not ideal but its also not exceptionally rare with a O.E.M. block bored to .060 over size.
could you run that block that way.... yes you could probably do that, and you won,t be the first or last guy to do so,...but realize its just a gamble on how long its going to last before it fails,, it could go years or fail the first time you hit 6500rpm, but your risking a great deal of your parts should the wall fail, thats why once you exceed about 450hp its generally a good idea to go with the stronger aftermarket blocks, because of the stress the block sees in the upper rpm range.
what your going thru is VERY common and its a huge reason why the aftermarket blocks like dart sells with the SIAMESE cylinder design (no coolant passes between the adjacent cylinders) OR blocks with high strength steel press in cylinder liners are much preferred once the hp levels exceed about 450hp, because theres less metal to support the rings if theres a coolant passage, with a cast iron block, and high strength cylinder liners are far stronger than the stock castings.
it won,t take much in the way of excess heat and stress or coolant passage corrosion to damage a cast cylinder wall that's only in the .064 thickness range


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DRT-31161211/


Build a powerful and durable engine at an affordable price.

The new Dart Special High Performance Chevy small block engines are manufactured from high-nickel iron for superior strength and feature siamese cylinders with 4.000 or 4.125 in. bore sizes. The cylinder walls are a minimum of .230 in. thick at a 4.165 in. bore. The Dart Special High Performance blocks are machined using precision, digital CNC equipment and are virtually ready to assemble right out of the box after a final cylinder hone. The decks are even and parallel within .002 in., and the lifter bores, cam, and main tunnels are finished. The Dart Special High Performance blocks are designed for compatibility with stock components, so no costly special parts are required for assembly.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Machine Work Costs

Postby Indycars » June 29th, 2010, 11:37 am

I just called the machinist and he said it was about 2.5" down from the top and was no bigger than 1/2 dollar, probably closer to quarter size. His probe sensor is about the size of a dime and he checked around the 0.064" thin spot.


Rick
Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Machine Work Costs

Postby grumpyvette » June 29th, 2010, 11:52 am

have you suggested sleeving that #4 cylinder and filling the coolant passages, up to the freeze plugs to get your machinists input here?
personally I think that block would be ok on a daily driver, used only for transportation, if the coolant passages were filled to the lower freeze plugs ,and that #4 cylinder were to be sleeved but Id be very hesitant, to even consider racing it with that thin of a cylinder wall reading,and the several other thin wall readings. what does your machinist feel about it?
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: Machine Work Costs

Postby Indycars » July 1st, 2010, 10:14 am

grumpyvette wrote:have you suggested sleeving that #4 cylinder and filling the coolant passages, up to the freeze plugs to get your machinists input here?
personally I think that block would be ok on a daily driver, used only for transportation, if the coolant passages were filled to the lower freeze plugs ,and that #4 cylinder were to be sleeved but Id be very hesitant, to even consider racing it with that thin of a cylinder wall reading,and the several other thin wall readings. what does your machinist feel about it?
It seems I would need to sleeve 3 or 4 cylinders and then I would still have a questionable block.

Do you have any experience with CNC Blocks NE??? Carl has the DART SHP block with mains lined hone, deck to your dimension, blue print bored and plate hone, lifter bores checked and clearanced if needed, oil galley holes tapped deeper if needed cleaned and shipped for $1795.00 . It may take longer to absorb the higher costs, but I sure won't have to worry with the Dart block. I know it seems like I'm constantly jumping all over the map when it comes to costs. :oops:

Thanks for putting the bug in my ear about sonic testing. I suppose a $300 lesson is cheaper than it could have been!!!

With the Dart block I can use the OEM lifters. Will stock hyd roller lifters withstand the added stresses of 450hp. If so that should save me several hundred dollars???

Rick
Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Machine Work Costs

Postby grumpyvette » July 1st, 2010, 10:38 am

Carl at cnc has a good reputation
and a dart block will provide a far stronger base to work from,
its not the horsepower but the spring load rates and rpm levels and lift acceleration rates that may pose a problem with any hydraulic roller lifter.
keep in mind most stock and many aftermarket hydraulic roller lifters tend to enter valve float or at least valve control issues in the 6300-6400rpm range or lower so if your thinking of spinning that engine up to higher rpms you may want to research solid roller lifters or rev control kits, and rocker stud girdles

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=47

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=788

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2625&p=6775&hilit=+rockers+girdle#p6775
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: Machine Work Costs

Postby grumpyvette » November 4th, 2010, 5:43 pm

have you ever wondered how many "tuner shops" even degree the cams they install.
or even do all the work you pay for??

Id bet a lot FEWER than you might think!
Ive asked questions that they HAD to know to degree in a cam and gotten THAT "deer in the headlight stare" several times, from the guy who claimed to have taken the time and charged for degreeing in the cam... Id bet many of them think degreeing in a cam means, installing the timing set DOT-TO-DOT
Image
I remember I checked push-rod geometry on some freinds pro built engine,from a Hollywood Florida shop that supposedly has a good reputation, once and when I found the push-rods were significantly out of spec I went bye the shop and asked how they were checked and the moron showed me the push-rod check tool being used Image like this (ITS UPSIDE DOWN IN THIS PICTURE)
many businesses do as little as they can get bye with doing..
Ive had machine shops try and charge me for torque plate honing on blocks and found they don,t even OWN a torque plate for the type of engine

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=90

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=588&p=4946&hilit=+honing#p4946
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: Machine Work Costs

Postby Indycars » November 4th, 2010, 6:00 pm

have you ever wondered how many "tuner shops" even degree the cams they install.
Don't matter to me, I would rather do it myself. But I see your point we all have to depend on someone else to perform certain tasks that we can't do ourselves, sometimes because we can't afford a $100,000 piece of equipment. One of the most respected speed shop in this area told me to get lost....they said I asked too many questions.
Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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