How To Pick Timing Gear Set



How To Pick Timing Gear Set

Postby Indycars » February 8th, 2011, 10:29 am

Grumpy,

I don't find anything about picking a timing gear setup that will support the stress levels of a specific engine. Now I'm not asking about the different features concerning the timing.... multiple keyways or the very expensive fully adjustable set costing $150.

What I'm needing is when do you need a billet steel crank gear or when do you need BOTH gears to be billet steel ???
When do I need the larger .25" rollers ??? Or Double Roller sets ???

Also when looking at the DOUBLE ROLLER sets, many times they say "Will not fit behind stock timing cover." Are we talking about the plastic covers or will these not fit behind a short SBC water pump ???

Some general guide lines would be very helpful !
Rick
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Re: How To Pick Timing Gear Set

Postby grumpyvette » February 8th, 2011, 11:06 am

you can make this complicated but its really not, a good dual roller chain by CLOYES fits under the stock cover and is the correct choice in about 90% or more of the carburetor equipped engines that don,t run really exotic components and probably a reasonable choice in the remaining 10%, if you have any questions you may want to call or email cloyes and get suggestions like Ive done several times, but I think youll find the standard cloyes roller timing sets do a decent job.
its also a real good idea to drill the pass side oil plug under the timing cover with a .030-.035 drill so oil constantly sprays on the timing chain during use,and while IM discussing cam timing sets Id say that about 90% of the time a good CLOYES timing chain set should be used on street cars vs a gear drive if that's one option your thinking about.
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above is a picture of how a typical timing chain looks with the DOT-TO-DOT install having the crank gear at 12 o'clock ,(B) and cam gear (A)indexed at 6 o'clock, NOTICE THE WOOD RIFF KEY AT 2 O'CLOCK,IF ITS ANYPLACE ELSE YOU HAVE IT INDEXED INCORRECTLY(C) naturally youll need to rotate the engine one full revolution to get the upper gear index to 12 o'clock and the lower gear back to 12 o'clock before dropping in the distributor
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http://www.butlerperformance.com/produc ... Chain.html (pontiac)
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[color=#800080]keep in mind the KEYWAY matched to the matching index mark will always be located at approximately 2 O'clock on the crank gear

ON CLOYES SETS the SHORTER CHAINS used ON LINE HONED BLOCKS ,GENERALLY HAVE A PART NUMBER ENDING IN EITHER -5 or _10 INDICATING A .005 or .0010 TIGHTER timing set

THERE ARE TIMING CHAIN TENSION-ER KITS AVAILABLE

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/S-B-Chevy ... ,3229.html
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drilling the pass side oil passage plug with a 1/32" bit so oil constantly sprays on the timing gears helps extend chain and gear life.
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ALL TIMING CHAINS STRETCH OVER TIME, the BETTER/MORE EXPENSIVE ONES TEND TOO LAST FAR LONGER, and PROPER LUBRICATION HELPS THEM LAST LONGER
yes you can spend a good deal more and buy a billet roller timing chain, but the fact remains that the cloyes true roller timing chain sets that cost less do an adequate job with very few failures so they are a great value
this is what most sbc engines use
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9 ... refilter=1

http://www.jegs.com/i/Cloyes/220/9-3645X9/10002/-1

IVE used dozens of these on SBC applications without one failing

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-3100
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don,t forget these if its an early non roller application
CLOYES # 3145 Fits 1987-1991 TPI Corvettes with Factory Roller Cams.
$104.79 Summit Racing.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-3651x3
1992-1994 $239.97
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LT1 stock cam sprocket (93-94) = 10128349
LT1 stock cam sprocket (95-97) = 10206039
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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-202
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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/man-42114/overview/

http://www.carid.com/loctite/272-high-t ... fgodAgUADA


READ THRU THESE CAREFULLY

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=90

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=399

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=10709

LT1
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viewtopic.php?f=52&t=697
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http://www.cloyes.com/Aftermarket/TechH ... fault.aspx
YOU CAN AVOID POTENTIAL CONFUSION & PROBLEMS IF YOU TAKE THE TIME TOO, DEGREE THE CAMSHAFT IN, instead of relying on "dot-to-dot".
theres a BIG difference in quality between the entry level and good quality parts made/ sold by cloyes

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9 ... refilter=1
($92)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-C-3023X/ ($21)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-3100A/ ($132)
http://static.summitracing.com/global/i ... 00a%20.pdf

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look closely theres three crank key slots and each is marked, with the crank key (R or rectangle) =(retarded 4 degrees) (0) strait up) and (A or triangle) =(advanced 4 degrees) located at approximately the 2 0,clock position the related mark(R or rectangle)= (retarded 4 degrees) (0) strait up) and (A or triangle) advanced 4 degrees) is at the 12 o,clock location that you use to line up with the cam gear while thats indexed at approximately the 6 o,clock location
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CHEAP LINK CHAINS TEND TO STRETCH FASTER
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dual roller chains tend to last significantly longer
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The Cloyes® Patented 3-Keyway crank sprocket allows adjustment of the crankshaft timing by ±4°.
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look closely theres three crank key slots and each is marked, with the crank key (R or rectangle) =(retarded 4 degrees) (0) strait up) and (A or triangle) =(advanced 4 degrees) located at approximately the 2 0,clock position the related mark(R or rectangle)= (retarded 4 degrees) (0) strait up) and (A or triangle) advanced 4 degrees) is at the 12 o,clock location that you use to line up with the cam gear while thats indexed at approximately the 6 o,clock location, its fairly common to screw this up if your not paying attention and that can result in bent valves

Remember: The camshaft angle is half of the crankshaft angle, therefore the camshaft will correspondingly advance or retard by ±2°.

By changing the cam timing, enhancements to the camshaft characteristics can be achieved. For example, retarding the cam timing will increase high RPM horsepower, and advancing the cam timing will increase low-end torque.


I generally just use one of these two cam drives on a SBC, (usually the chain drives on most engines)
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gear cam drives tend too, at least in theory to be more accurate, Ive used one in almost all of my corvette engines for many years, but it can drive knock sensors crazy on efi systems and its generally not going to provide much of an advantage at the rpm levels most street engines operate at.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-1100/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G6700-Q/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9 ... refilter=1

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related threads

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=205&p=887&hilit=gears+chain+cams#p887


viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4532&p=12045&hilit=gears+timing+cam#p12045

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3809&p=10227&hilit=gears+timing+cam#p10227

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=781&p=1132&hilit=gears+timing+cam#p1132

yes there is a good reason to avoid those cheap import timing chain sets that auto parts stores frequently sell for under $30.........heres one with less than an hours of run time
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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: How To Pick Timing Gear Set

Postby Indycars » February 8th, 2011, 11:35 am

Ok, use the KISS method then....thanks !
Rick
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: How To Pick Timing Gear Set

Postby bob » March 31st, 2011, 2:51 pm

just want to say that grump's advice to stick with the CLOYES roller link timing chain sets is spot on!
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9 ... refilter=1

the Cloyes 9-3649X3-5. Single roller with billet crank gear for the newer single roller BIG BLOCK CHEVY MARK V- and ESPECIALLY MARK VI with plastic timing cover engines that won,t allow use of the older thicker dual roller chain timing sets.

we pulled down my friends small block Chevy after it only had 54,000 miles on a auto parts store bargain basement $21 timing chain ,IT HAD INDIA STAMPED ON THE TOP GEAR
The timing drive system in your engine is just that, a system, with inter-related components. For "peace of mind", to reduce the chances of having to re-do the job,and to reduce the chance of future problems,with the timing set, and for continued dependability & performance, it is strongly recommended that all components (gears and chain as a matched set) are replaced together, as a unit.


and his current gear set that he had installed previously because he wanted to install a new cam,when he previously rebuilt the engine was a $21 auto parts store imported no-name part, link belt design
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with its single tooth design gears

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not roller link design, with its dual teeth and roller link chain

YOU CAN AVOID POTENTIAL CONFUSION & PROBLEMS IF YOU TAKE THE TIME TOO, DEGREE THE CAMSHAFT IN, instead of relying on "dot-to-dot".

and the timing light indicated there was some play in the timing as it jumped as rpms changed and there was a good deal of slack in the chain links even though he changes oil frequently and there was very little indication of varnish or sludge build-up on the parts indicating that the oil had been changed regularly.
on opening the timing cover there was contact marks at one point on the inside of the timing cover where the slack timing chain was just barely touching the inner timing covers outer surface at times so I have little doubt that he prevented a major failure by replacing the timing chain,gears and cam/lifters etc
bob

 

Re: How To Pick Timing Gear Set

Postby Indycars » March 31st, 2011, 3:23 pm

Hey Bob,

Yes, I did the right thing and bought this Cloyes set. Thanks for feedback about your friend, once
again, you get what you pay for !!!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-1145/

Cloyes9-1145TimingSet.jpg
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: How To Pick Timing Gear Set

Postby grumpyvette » April 17th, 2011, 8:44 am

now if youve got cash to throw away......a belt drive tends to run quieter, and with less friction, usually worth 5-8 extra hp
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http://www.jegs.com/i/Jesel/549/KBD-310 ... tId=746075
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: How To Pick Timing Gear Set

Postby philly » June 21st, 2014, 11:29 pm

i just wanted to revive this to revisit the timing belt drive sets... theres an inexpensive wet drive option available from comp (about half the price of dry systems)... ive spent 400 dollars on things that havent netted me 5 or 10 hp and increased the longevity of my valvetrain... a belt drive does the best job of damping crank harmonics that can shake their way up the chain and into the cam and thus into your valvetrain...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-5100/overview/

cca-5100_w.jpg
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Re: How To Pick Timing Gear Set

Postby 87vette81big » June 22nd, 2014, 7:53 am

If I was to choose a Belt Drive Setup Phil it would be a Dry Setup.
Just because on the car Camshaft Advance & Retard Phasing changes are so easy to do.
All out Drag Racing.
Degreeing in with a cam wheel takes less than 15-30 minutes on SBF Or BBC.
Been called on the Job to do for others. A Pleasant experience.
No dropping the oil pan like Chevy.
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Re: How To Pick Timing Gear Set

Postby philly » June 22nd, 2014, 9:49 am

yea youre right i didnt consider how easy to adjust the timing it is on a dry setup... i wonder if anyone makes belt drives for mopars? my wifes dying to get into a 68-69 dart or challenger and ie been look at a bunch of parts online
-phil

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Re: How To Pick Timing Gear Set

Postby 87vette81big » June 22nd, 2014, 10:01 am

philly wrote:yea youre right i didnt consider how easy to adjust the timing it is on a dry setup... i wonder if anyone makes belt drives for mopars? my wifes dying to get into a 68-69 dart or challenger and ie been look at a bunch of parts online

I am sure they do Phil.
Indy Head Service comes to mind.
Grumpy can help research for You.
Belt drives are expensive. Seen them used on the street.
Don't think they are necessary most times myself.
All of us today are on tight budgets today.
Belt drives sure do look intimidating .
Most of time I see them, there is over $10k in top end.
Race Heads. Titanium valves. Billet roller cam riding on needle bearings.
Titanium retainers. Titanium valve locks. Sheetmetal fabbded intake.
Race carb or Race fuel injection. Jesel or T&D shaft rockers.
All necessary to make that extra 200-400 HP before Boost comes on hard.
Titanium Retainers do the most to promote Usable RPM Band I found for $$ invested
Last about 10,000 miles street driving or more.
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Re: How To Pick Timing Gear Set

Postby philly » June 22nd, 2014, 11:46 am

yea i just think the setup looks cool as hell... in my mind's eye when she says she wants a dart i think of something like this:

96546_Rear_3-4_Web.jpg


with a stroked LA small block 400+cid, aluminum heads, a single plane, belt drive, stick shift, lots of gear and 7500+ rpm

when she talks about challengers i just say im broke
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Re: How To Pick Timing Gear Set

Postby philly » June 22nd, 2014, 11:51 am

+1 on the titanium retainers... also if youre running forced induction i would get the titanium valves, but for naturally aspirated setups hollow stem or sodium filled valves are almost as light but they are about half the money.
-phil

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Re: How To Pick Timing Gear Set

Postby 87vette81big » June 22nd, 2014, 12:15 pm

A friend had a 1968 Dart GT 340. 727 Torqueflite. 3.23 Posi.
Fun car. Installed A Race Hyd. Purpleshaft I recall. Adjustable pushrods.
Unknown high stall 3K rpm torque converter.
It would turn 8k rpms.
Single Plane Torker & Carter AFB 750. Old Blackjack Long tube headers.
Needed more gear but once it got moving it screamed.
Sorta like Ricks T-bucket issue Racing Real Race Cars now.
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Re: How To Pick Timing Gear Set

Postby philly » June 26th, 2014, 4:57 pm

87vette81big wrote:A friend had a 1968 Dart GT 340. 727 Torqueflite. 3.23 Posi.
Fun car. Installed A Race Hyd. Purpleshaft I recall. Adjustable pushrods.
Unknown high stall 3K rpm torque converter.
It would turn 8k rpms.
Single Plane Torker & Carter AFB 750. Old Blackjack Long tube headers.
Needed more gear but once it got moving it screamed.
Sorta like Ricks T-bucket issue Racing Real Race Cars now.



i would love for her to have an awesome rock n roll machine like that... i think if i put her in the 12's shes gonna have alot of fun racing new camaros and mustangs and challengers out on the street and shell get some street cred under her belt
-phil

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