porting can help



Re: porting can help

Postby ChevyInf » February 14th, 2010, 8:15 am

thanks for the link to the electric die grinder, and the gofastnews porting articles are great... they really helped me understand how the shape and size of a port effect airflow. also, i remember seeing a post on here that had links to grease for the bits, but i can't find it.. i found this on eastwoods site..

http://www.eastwood.com/ew-grinders-gre ... ent_id=475

is that good or what do you recommend?

i ordered these bits last night:
http://store.b2bprofessionaltools.com/3 ... 6-jpg.html

http://store.b2bprofessionaltools.com/3 ... 6-jpg.html

http://store.b2bprofessionaltools.com/3 ... 2-jpg.html

http://store.b2bprofessionaltools.com/3 ... 1-jpg.html
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Re: porting can help

Postby grumpyvette » February 14th, 2010, 8:52 am

http://www.eastwood.com/ew-grinders-gre ... ent_id=475

I have not tried that grease yet, so please post your impression of how it works out
I have just been frequently dipping burrs in some cutting oil mixed 50%/50% with water, using a spray bottle on the port walls , and a shop vacuum to keep the chips and liquid in the ports minimized,and that seems to work reasonably well, (MESSY, BUT REASONABLY EFFECTIVE).

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Primros ... -Oil/H8256
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: porting can help

Postby IBob » February 27th, 2010, 12:40 pm

Do the ALUM burrs do any better on aluminum (heads/intake) or will the standard carbide durrs do just as well?

Are there any specific tips doing aluminum heads as opposed to cast iron?

One tip I read about (IRRC by Vizard) on electric die grinders was to use a dimmer switch as a speed control.
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Re: porting can help

Postby grumpyvette » February 27th, 2010, 1:54 pm

building heat up destroys burr edges on either material quickly , so using coolant helps extend cutter life significantly ,burrs designed for aluminum have a different flute angle and spacing and are made from different material
aluminum tends to clump up far faster on the edges, and the cutters need to be kept cool and oiled or almost constantly sprayed with a fine mist of cutting oil if you want to get the burr kept clear
most suppliers can advise the better burr designs, if you tell them the application

http://www.harborfreight.com/adjustable ... xS87oWmVvI
Image
WEARING A FULL FACE SHIELD and having a 5-6hp shop vacuum set up to suck the vast majority of the debris from the porting work out of the air is going to help prevent some accidents and getting crap in your eyes
Image
one other very frequent use for my shop vac is to collect metallic debris, when I port cylinder heads, I usually tape some 1.5" plastic conduit to the shop vac suction hose, then tape the tip of the conduit to the opposite end of the port Im working on with duct tape, (obviously youll remove the valves before porting or port matching heads)
you can place the suction hose extension, in the far end of a port and duct tape it in place temporarily, and then use a die grinder to clean up the port and the shop vac will collect the vast majority of the metallic chips , having the shop vacuum constantly sucking the metallic debris out of the port also tends to cool the cutting burr, and slow the flutes on the burr from clogging with crud, but youll still want to dip the cutting burr in a mix of marvel mystery oil and WD40 every few seconds to prevent aluminum chips from clogging the burrs cutting flutes or the burr heating up

Image
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-66483/
Image
a decent cylinder head stand helps

read these threads
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=462&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=porting+help

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3143&p=8387&hilit=porting+help#p8387

http://www.carbideselect.com/burshpescuts.php

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=2773&p=7802&hilit=+porting+help#p7802

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2630&p=6788&hilit=+porting+help#p6788

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1831&p=4763&hilit=+porting+help#p4763

Ive come to like air die grinders as they keep cool unlike electric designs, and youll take several hours or more to do heads so thats important
keep in mind your object is not to remove large amounts of material but to smooth the edges and transition points, in the ports to increase flow and reduce restrictions

http://drillsandcutters.com/sets.aspx

http://drillsandcutters.com/b_fa_cylindrical_re.aspx
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: porting can help

Postby IBob » February 27th, 2010, 2:08 pm

I have both elec and air. I figured to have two of us working or trade off between the elec and air ginders.

As you say we will not be removing large amounts of material, just cleaning up things.
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Re: porting can help

Postby ChevyInf » February 28th, 2010, 8:36 pm

not sure if this is your first time porting, but make sure to be careful around the VALVE SEATS! also, sometimes the bit wants to "climb" the metal and hit a gasket surface.. so be careful around the outside of intake and exhaust ports, and make sure the chuck of your grinder doesn't hit anything either. that last one sounds kind of odd, but i thought i would mention that since i've hit the head with the chuck myself.
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Re: porting can help

Postby grumpyvette » February 28th, 2010, 8:42 pm

its amazing the silly stuff that routinely happens, with power tools if your not concentrating ALL the time!
only experience and familiarity with the tools helps,
theres a great deal of info in the links earlier in this thread
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: porting can help

Postby IBob » February 28th, 2010, 9:04 pm

This is not my first porting job, I did the BBC heads for our Vega, but I am always open to suggestions and tips.
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Re: porting can help

Postby ChevyInf » March 4th, 2010, 10:23 pm

hey... i just found these burs..
http://www.amazon.com/Champion-SE3L6-Ti ... B000OBK0PK
http://www.amazon.com/Champion-SC3L6-Ti ... B000OBDL0Q
http://www.amazon.com/Long-Carbide-Bur- ... B000IKHLRW
they look like they are pretty good. do you have any experience with those types of burs grumpy?
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Re: porting can help

Postby bob » March 5th, 2010, 10:07 am

before grumpy gets here , let me say Ive seen those in his shop so I know he uses them on occasion :D
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Re: porting can help

Postby grumpyvette » March 5th, 2010, 10:33 am

those gold color burrs work ok, Ive found they cut a bit longer before dulling than the standard steel burrs,
just keep in mind ALL BURRS need to be kept cool,ALL THE TIME!
and some frequent use of cutting oil or at least WD 40 or water helps maintain the cutting edge longer and cut only until the first time they get over heated.
not bearing down and working with a light touch will tend to result in better results than trying to rush, I can,t over emphasize, that your generally not trying to remove much metal, what your trying to do is reduce restrictions top flow and abrupt changes in the port surface direction such as under the valve in the bowl area on some heads. and that the flapper wheels with the sand paper get used frequently

Image

(lower right, 7 gallon tank/pump, for $149)

my mill has a separate cutting fluid pump assembly with an easily moved adjustable nozzle thats comes in handy when porting heads as it provides a constant trickle of cutting/cooling oil/water mix, Im sure the same pump could be used for a parts washer also
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: porting can help

Postby grumpyvette » March 6th, 2010, 4:10 pm

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-SMC-VM2-Foot-Pe ... 19ba68e885

http://www.clippard.com/footpedals/Defa ... 2godCHVQZg
Image

need a foot actuated valve to control your valve grinder rpm speed while porting, so you can control rpms?
your local pneumatic or hydraulic supply has them in most cases
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: porting can help

Postby grumpyvette » April 10th, 2010, 1:23 pm

will a larger throttle body help my TPI?
it will depend to a great extent on the engine combo, RPM range and displacement your running.

Image
Keep in mind even the factory 502 cubic inch big block used the stock L98 TPI throttle body size and made 500 horse power


yes a 58mm can potentially increase hp if your engines highly modified and your still using a stock 48mm throttle body, but its hardly a big restriction, and your probably going to gain more with other mods
the stock 48mm is fine for most engines
a swap to a 52 mm (the largest easy to port size a stock throttle body can be ported too) will normally gain you only about 5hp if your engines mildly modified
a swap to a 58mm aftermarket throttle body to increase airflow is USUALLY WASTED MONEY until your combo exceeds approximately 400hp

have you ever noticed that in all the years everyone's been swapping to 52mm and 58mm and mono blade 1300 cfm throttle bodies , they have said things like
I did not gain a great deal of hp
I lost some throttle response
It sounds different but I don,t seem to go faster
I only gained a tenth of a second plus a couple thousands in the 1/4 mile

Ive yet to find anyone that lost hp,once the engine was properly set up and adjusted with the larger throttle bodies
a throttle body is not like the venturies on a carb that control the fuel/air mix, the computer and sensors and injectors do that on an EFI system, the throttle body is only a air volume control valve, your engine can only use (X) amount of air at any given point, as long as the throttle body is allowing that much OR MORE to pass UNRESTRICTED, its going to work reasonably well. the individual ports combined on even a 454 size sbc spinning 6500rpm (WAY OVER ADVISABLE PISTON SPEED) only can use about 850-950cfm (do the math) that can be fed from dual 56mm throttle bores, since a 58mm is the closest size that's what most guys with large engines use,a 383 like mine with a custom stealth ram only needs about 775-825cfm. a 52mm is just a little to small and a 58mm is overly large BUT, TOO LARGE, WON,T HURT PERFORMANCE NEARLY AS BAD AS TOO SMALL or RESTRICTIVE MIGHT! ONLY TOO RESTRICTIVE/SMALL hurts!
yes you might lose a small amount of throttle response, but an overly large throttle body won,t hurt high rpm hp if mounted on an engine with an intake with the correct port runner size/length, compression and cam timing. don,t forget that a great deal of how effective an intake system is is controlled by the rpm range where the exhaust system on that same engine scavenges the cylinders efficiently. if you don,t have full length tuned headers and a free flow exhaust , adding a larger throttle body is likely a waste of effort. if you cant get rid of whats in the cylinder now you can,t refill it effectively anyway. keep in mind an engine is A SYSTEM, ALL PARTS MUST BE DESIGNED TO WORK EFFECTIVELY AT THE SAME RPM,AND DISPLACEMENT.
HP is MORE THE RESULT OF HOW EFFICIENTLY you can pack fuel/air ,into a cylinder, burn it efficiently, and get rid of it , using its energy to reload the next charge than almost any other factors, using a larger throttle body can help!
I just swapped from my 58mm back to the stock 48mm as a quick test on my 383 corvette, guess what! the stock throttle body made the vette noticeably SLOWER!!
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: porting can help

Postby IBob » April 18th, 2010, 5:42 pm

Well we got some work done on the heads.
Heads: Powerhouse (Enginekits) 190cc aluminum, 64cc chambers (as cast), assembled.
Valves, springs, retainers and locks are Elgin.
Current price: $650/pr on the Enginekits website.

The flow specs listed by Enginekits are identical to Avenger cnc'd 190cc heads. Our (son & I) conjecture is that the Avenger heads may have been molded, then cast from the molds and the same flow specs used. Only conjecture.
The flow specs are given as follows: .100 64/61, .200 128/115, .300 181/158, .400 227/190, .500 260/209, .600 277/227, .700 280/231.

Our main goal was eliminating casting flash and roughness, smoothing and polishing, not increasing port size. We used no burrs, only cartridge rolls and buffs. I think that burrs would have removed more material than we intended. We used most of a Standard Abrasives kit and a some additional cartridge rolls and some smaller buffs. The SA buffs were good in the chambers, but were a little large for the ports. Chambers were polished, intake ports were smoothed to 120g, exhaust ports were smoothed and polished and some grinding slag around where the push rod slots were ground was removed and the area smoothed.

If I am going to keep posting pictures I will have to learn to use the wife's camera as it has considerably greater capability than the little camera I use. The pics are befor and after of the chambers, exhaust ports and overalls of the intakes and exhausts.

Hopefully this info will be of use to someone.
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Re: porting can help

Postby IBob » April 18th, 2010, 6:02 pm

Here are the rest of the pics.
By the way I have no association with Enginekits.
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Re: porting can help

Postby grumpyvette » January 27th, 2011, 3:17 pm

Hey grumpy,I bought these heads,
It's tough to see the blend here, but this is the exhaust port
just a bit of info on intake gaskets sizes to match port cross sectional areas

Image
Image
COMMON SBC INTAKE PORTS
felpro # 1204=Port Size: 1.23" x 1.99"=2.448 sq inches

felpro # 1205=Port Size: 1.28" x 2.09"=2.67 sq inches

felpro # 1206=Port Size: 1.34" x 2.21"=2.96 sq inches

felpro # 1207=Port Size: 1.38" x 2.28"=3.146 sq inches

felpro # 1209=Port Size: 1.38" x 2.38"=3.28 sq inches

felpro # 1255 VORTEC=Port Size: 1.08" x 2.16"-2.33 sq inches

felpro # 1263=Port Size: 1.31" x 2.02"=2.65 sq inches

felpro # 1266=Port Size: 1.34" x 2.21"=2.96 sq inches

felpro # 1284 LT1=Port Size: 1.25 x 2.04''=2.55 sq inches

felpro # 1289 FASTBURN=Port Size: 1.30" x 2.31" 3.00 sq inches

USE THE CALCULATORS, YOULL, QUICKLY FIND THE LIMITATIONS
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/runnertorquecalc.html
http://www.wallaceracing.com/chokepoint.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/header_length.php

Image

And here you can kinda see that there is no material to work on around the guide itself (at least, on the exhaust side, there is on the intake).

Image

I don't think the SSR has been touched. There's no work in the bowl area above the blend at all.
Do you think a simple intake port match on both the heads and the manifold would be money better spent?

Image

Image
Image

whats some CNC port work can do

Right now the car is mostly street like I said. There's potential for it to be more, but for now, it's just a street Camaro that we'll take to the strip just to see what it'll do times a few times a year. I'd like it to be a solid 12 second street car.





you should be able to measurably improve flow with mild port & bowl clean-up work, and a port match, those heads have been improved 20 plus cfm or more on both the intake and exhaust in several cases Ive seen.naturally having an experienced porting shop work over the heads will generally provide greater gains, but you can do enough to see results


these threads should help

http://www.profilerperformance.com/

http://www.profilerperformance.com/sbc-heads-176.html

http://www.j-performance.com/index.php? ... &Itemid=59

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4222

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2630

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=3379&p=8922&hilit=+shop+filter#p8922

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=462

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=2773&p=7802&hilit=+matching+port+intake&sid=31c7582fda44c2c2bac02889b83aac76#p7802

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1831&p=4763&hilit=burrs+porting&sid=31c7582fda44c2c2bac02889b83aac76#p4763

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnJOtTj1f5A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF0Rwh2KIlI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_PfzOIgzT8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_BXeXoGzD8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fYD0R7Akbk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9dhu-TwmVU
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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