degree it in correctly and get it to last,cam install info,



degree it in correctly and get it to last,cam install info,

Postby grumpyvette » September 17th, 2008, 2:04 pm

IM frequently asked (why bother degreeing in a cam, the timing set comes with index marks to install it?)
it basically comes down to, a question of do you accept a random install where the timing can be almost any place randomly or do you insist on maximizing the engines potential and know exactly how and why things work.
when your degreeing in a cam your verifying that the cam card figures , you purchased the cam for MATCH what the cams going to be doing in the engine , if everything is correct a dot-to-dot install will be almost identical, but the fact is that due to manufacturing tolerances a dot-to-dot install will frequently be a few degrees off! now most guys might never notice, but it can and frequently does effect the engines power band so getting it correct helps and eliminates one potential source of problems
ITS also a great way to catch mistakes before you get to the point where you try to start the engine with the cam indexed incorrectly, if you used the wrong index marks on the timing set..
WELL,theres manufacturing tolerances in all machined components , in most case the tolerances are rather random to some degree and tend to cancel out the differences between the components to some degree, and the AVERAGE result is that most of the time if your, cams a few degrees off, the ideal location most people will never know it and that's fine, but occasionally the tolerances stack up to cause a problem, or clearance issues.
you can easily find a few degrees of cam timing difference can cause or cure detonation problems or (PINGING) under loads, and in a few cases piston to valve clearance is critical, once you get into building performance engines you'll also find that the intake and exhaust are ideally tuned for a set power band and having the cam a few degrees off from the ideal will cost you some power.
you can install most cams with the common (DOT-TO-DOT) timing set marks if you use quality components like CLOYES timing sets and name brand cams but even then theres variations that youll see once you degree in the cam rather than assume its correctly indexed
and using the dot-to-dot route youll be within about 2-3 degrees in most cases, which is close enough to get the car to run decent, but a 4 degree change results in about a 200rpm change in the cars power band RPM range, the tolerances can result in a 3-7 degree off set with the cheap import timing sets and cheaper mass produced cams, in most cases you'll never notice, but if the cars set up to run with close tolerances, high compression and ideal quench ETC. that could easily result in 10-20hp, IVE seen some cases where the difference was quite noticeable, in the way the car ran, and a few cases where cheap import timing sets were WAY OFF and would have cost you a good deal of hp/tq at least and probably caused clearance issues, or over heating or a noticeable power loss if installed without checking.
theres also more to it than just INDEXING the cam, you need to set up the valve train geometry and check spring rates and clearances carefully, and indexing the cam timing in the engine in relation to the piston location, during its rotation can be a valuable tuning aid , as you can easily degree in a cam so its 4-6 degrees advanced or retarded from the split overlap or strait up location, easily tuning the power band up to about 200-250 rpm either direction in the rpm band, changing the opening and closing points in the cam timing, effects the DCR and the power band, but its also useful in getting the intake and exhaust tuned but past those limits swapping to a different cam is almost always the better choice

http://www.cranecams.com/bulletins_listview.php?s_id=7

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[size=150][color=#FF4040] most manufacturers IDENTIFY OR mark cams under the timing gear mount surface

READING THRU the linked info below will help,a great deal, and yes IM well aware theres a ton of info posted in the links, reading and understanding that info will be to your benefit, well beyond the time it takes you to read thru it, and it can easily save you many hours and avoid costly repairs by doing the reading before you need to do repairs, due to over-looked steps or incorrectly installed parts [/size]
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VwsbEg7Z4I
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A non-symmetrical lobe will have a different center-line when
checked at 0.050” above the base circle than it does when checked at 0.050” from either side of the top of the lobe.
camshafts should always be checked at the bottom of the lobe, which is 0.050” tappet lift off the base circle.


Proform Parts 66830 - Proform Cam Checking Fixture Kits
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THE PROFORM SOCKETS ARE ALUMINUM
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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-67492/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-67491/

when purchasing a crank socket try to find one designed to easily accept and lock down a degree wheel

THE COMP SOCKETS ARE FAR MORE DURABLE STEEL
http://www.jegs.com/i/COMP+Cams/249/4914/10002/-1 LS ENGINES
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http://www.jegs.com/i/COMP-Cams/249/479 ... ProductId= BBC ENGINES
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http://www.jegs.com/i/COMP-Cams/249/479 ... ProductId= SBC ENGINES
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a properly installed nylon cam button with a bolt retainer plates a good idea
youll generally use LOC-TITE on the retainer bolts threads
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a properly installed nylon cam button with a bolt retainer plates a good idea
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http://www.tavia.com/free_degree_wheel.html

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WHEN CRANK IS AT TWELVE AND CAM IS AT SIX THEN #6 CYL IS FIRING AFTER YOU LINE UP YOUR MARKS AND INSTALL GEAR THEN ROTATE YOUR CRANK ONE REVOLUTION AND THEN DROP THE DIST. IN - AT THAT POINT
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viewtopic.php?f=50&t=3157

http://www.hughesengines.com/Upload/pro ... ar2010.pdf

http://69.20.53.62/pdf/803.pdf

http://www.iskycams.com/degreeing.html

http://www.thedirtforum.com/degree.htm

http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Cams/Ho ... eACam.aspx

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=399&p=1689#p1689

http://www.streetsideauto.com/images/BB ... e/214e.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57bn-7Az43M88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7ZzYaMVi00

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=966

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=417

http://www.classicinlines.com/cam_degree.asp

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=727

http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Cams/CamSpecTerms.aspx

http://cranecams.com/?id=2&show=faq

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181&p=215#p215

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=974&p=1699&hilit=printable#p1699

http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInstruc ... 119661.pdf

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1769

http://www.aa1car.com/library/camshafts.htm

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1070&p=2054#p2054

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... umber=5645

http://www.thirdgen.org/sbc-camshafts-primer

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=324&p=394&hilit=+advancing#p394

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1489

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=528

https://www.holley.com/data/Products/Te ... NST150.pdf

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1759

http://www.cam-shield.com/index.html

http://www.camshaftinnovations.com/FTT_ ... ingCam.htm

http://www.trishieldperf.com/cam_degreeing.htm

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=282

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=399

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr_n0cL46NM&NR=1

http://www.faliconcranks.com/pdf/degree ... mshaft.pdf

http://www.ls1howto.com/index.php?article=23

LINK TO INFO ON A printable degree wheel and related info
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=974

The following Mechanical operating clearances must always be verified to ensure proper operation of the camshaft:
Spring coil bind clearance
Retainer to seal/valve guide boss clearance
Piston to valve clearance
Rocker arm slot to stud clearance
Camshaft endplay
Distributor shaft and gear endplay
Connecting rod to cam clearance
Proper hydraulic lifter pre-load or lash clearance
Proper valvetrain geometry
proper spring load rates
rocker to retainer clearance
notice the approximate location and relationship between the cam pin and crank key
there are fully adjustable timing gear sets available
http://www.usaperform.com/timing-chain- ... =4d&page=1

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many guys don,t understand that on these multi key timing sets there areTHREE different letters,
on the crank gear and three matching keyway slots.

0 on the cam gear gets lined up with 0 on the crank gear, if the 0 crank key slot is used to index the cam at TDC

0 on the cam gear gets lined up with R on the crank gear, if the R crank key slot is used to index the cam at 4 degrees retarded from TDC

0 on the cam gear gets lined up with A on the crank gear, if the A crank key slot is used to index the cam at 4 degrees ADVANCED from TDC
http://www.superchevy.com/technical/eng ... index.html
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http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku
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http://www.romac.com.au/Std_&_Offset_Crank_Info.pdf

read thru the links and info on these old threads

http://www.iskycams.com/pdfcatalog/2004-05/page195.pdf

http://www.pbm-erson.com/uploads/cat%5B ... CEDURE.pdf

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=279&p=1640#p1640

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_0701_ ... index.html

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=966&p=1682&hilit=+dead#p1682

http://www.thedirtforum.com/chevyvalves.htm

http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/Overlap.html

http://www.2quicknovas.com/happyvalves.html

http://www.jimcookperformance.com/TechNotes/TN7ValvLash.html

http://www.centuryperformance.com/valveadjustment.asp

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/us/uhs89720.htm

http://www.boostandfuel.com/support/setting_valves.htm

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/87998/index2.html

http://www.xtrememotorworks.com/cam_basics.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/pontiacdude428/valveadj.html

http://www.lbfun.com/warehouse/tech_inf ... 0Paper.pdf

btw on roller cams, roller rockers, and roller lifters and timing chains this stuff works ok as a lube

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-M-10012

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http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showfla...rue#Post1178811

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browsePa ... er=11991-1
this may help

if you've got an older GM muscle car with timing problems this thread below may explain it
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=540&p=677&hilit=nylon#p677
DOT-TO-DOT
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DOING IT CORRECTLY
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heres a printable degree wheel
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what the stock OEM roller lifter valve train looks like
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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: cam install info

Postby grumpyvette » September 30th, 2008, 4:34 pm

read thru this
http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/c ... r_oil.html

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1070

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=480

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2782&p=7215&hilit=+overlap#p7215

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=90

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=2782&p=7433&hilit=+overlap#p7433
you should also keep in mind that a roller cam valve train with the same lift and duration can provide a good deal more port flow and resulting power.
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but even roller cams can wipe out lobes if the valve train components or valve train lubrication,and geometry is not set up correctly
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preventing cam & lifter break-in failures

OPTIONS

it should be rather obvious that theres options, cam failures are usually the result of incorrect CLEARANCES or too much SPRING PRESSURE or LACK of ADEQUATE LUBRICATION,USE DECENT MOLY CAM LUBE, and decent quality oil, adding MAGNETS to trap metallic CRUD HELPS

READ
http://www.cranecams.com/?show=faq&id=1

(1) get a decent ROLLER CAM, add a high voluum oil pump, baffled 8 qt oil pan, with a windage screen and check your clearances and avoid the problem,USE DECENT MOLY CAM LUBE,and decent quality oil,adding MAGNETS to trap metalic CRUD HELPS


(2) use a SOLID lifter flat tappet cam with lifters with the lube feed holes,add a high voluum oil pump, baffled 8 qt oil pan, with a windage screen and check your clearances and avoid the problem,USE DECENT MOLY CAM LUBE, and decent quality oil,adding MAGNETS to trap metalic CRUD HELPS


http://www.competitionproducts.com/prod ... r=651080DL

(3) mod the lifter bores for more oil flow,add a high voluum oil pump, baffled 8 qt oil pan, with a windage screen and check your clearances and avoid the problem,USE DECENT MOLY CAM LUBE,and decent quality oil,adding MAGNETS to trap metalic CRUD HELPS


http://www.compperformancegroupstores.c ... gory_Code=


(4)USE DECENT MOLY CAM LUBE

http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=15,
add a high voluum oil pump, baffled 8 qt oil pan, with a windage screen and check your clearances and avoid the problem,and decent quality oil,adding MAGNETS to trap metalic CRUD HELPS


(5) thinking things thru and verifying clearances and spring pressures, and having a well thought thru lube system will significantly lower your chances of having problems,USE DECENT MOLY CAM LUBE,and decent quality oil,adding MAGNETS to trap metalic CRUD HELPS
.......I have not seen a cam fail in years UNLESS the guy installing it failed to follow those tips


anyone see a PATTERN?

you might want to read thru this AGAIN

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=article&id=2]http://www.cranecams.com/?show=article&id=2

FROM MORTEC
If you are building a SMALL or BIG block Chevy with a flat tappet cam, (solid or hydraulic lifters) be careful during the initial engine break in. It is very easy to lose a cam lobe and lifter during initial break in. This is especially true with a higher than stock lift cam and higher pressure valve springs. The increased push rod angles found on the BBC and poor preparation can make cam lobe failure after initial fire-up a distinct possibility. You can help prevent this cam lobe failure by making sure the engine is pre-lubed prior to initial fire up. Use a good high pressure lube on the cam lobes and lifter bottoms during assembly. If possible use a lighter pressure stock valve spring (or if using a valve spring with multiple springs, take out some of the inner springs) to initial run the engine. Then switch to the heavier pressure springs after break in. When the engine is first fired up, keep the engine rpms at 2,500 or above, don't let the engine idle for 20 minutes or longer. This keeps lots of oil splashing up on the cam lobes. Make sure the engine can be run for this time period by having enough fuel available, ignition timing set correctly, coolant available for the motor, valve lash set correctly, etc. The idea is not to crank the motor over excessively before it starts up for the first time. If your BBC flat tappet cam survives this initial break in period, it will be good to go for many miles. After the initial engine breakin, drain the oil and change the oil filter. Roller cams generally do not suffer these types of cam lobe failures during initial engine fireup.
if youve adjusted the valves correctly the lifter spins at all rpm levels,but that does NOT mean it wears EVENLY at all rpm levels due to several factors if you [color="orange"] look closely AT FLAT TAPPET CAMS [/color]youll see that the center of the cam lobe is NOT centered under the lifter and that the lifter surface is slightly angled , BOTH these factors force the lifter to spin in its bore as the lobe passes under the lifter slightly off center.
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SOME of the reasons the higher rpm during the break in phase is important is that

(1) the faster RPMs the better chances the lobe passes under the lifter floated on an oil film and the less time the oil film has to squeeze out between them

(2) the higher the RPM the greater the oil volume and pressure the engine pumps and the more oil flow is available at the lobes

(3)the higher the rpm level the more oil is thrown from the rods onto the cam lobes

(4)the higher the rpm the greater the lifters weight and inertia tends to compensate for the springs pressure and lower the net pressure as the lifter passes over the cam lobes nose

(5) at higher rpm speed the better chance a small wedge of oil is trapped between the lifter base and lobe from the oil thrown from the lobes surface by centrifical force

(6) two differant metal surfaces scraping past each other at low speeds may tend to wear and GALL as the oil is sqeezed out but two differant hardness steel surfaces that impact each other at higher speeds covered with oil tend to work harden as they mate and will tend to be seperated by that oil

(7)as the lifter spins in its bore the contact point between the lobe and lifter base constantly changes and rotates with the lobe contact point not resisting its passage and the higher the rpms the faster the lifter rotates and the less time the lobe spends at any one point

BTW ADD E.O.S. to the oil and MOLY break-in lube to the cam
before starting the engine and prefill the filter and pre-prime the oil system before starting the engine.
I normally pour it in just before starting the engines cam break in,procedure. because I want to make sure that nothing in the oil/E.O.S. mix can settle out from sitting over a long period of time. now if your running a flat tappet cam you should have also used a moly cam lube on the lobes and be using a mineral base oil for the break-in procedure, and youll need to do an oil and filter change after about the first 3-4 hours running time to remove that moly cam lube from the engine after its served its purpose of protecting the cams lobes and lifters at start up, aND AS THE LOBES/LIFTERS LAPPED IN. MOSTLY to prevent that moly grease and E.O.S from potentially partially clogging the filter after that mix cools down,but also because both those lubes might leave deposits in the combustion chamber ,over time that might aggravate detonation.
even G.M. suggests that E.O.S. is not a great long term oil supplement, and that its main function is to add extra oil film strength durring new engine break in.

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cf ... number=EOS


don,t forget a few magnets in the oil pan goes a long way towards trapping unwanted metalic dust formed from the cam and rings lapping in durring break-in that might otherwise get imbedded in your bearings or cause other problems
heres the magnets I use in every engine
add a few magnets to the oil pan and drain back area in your engine, the trap and hold metalic dust that comes from wear and increase engine life span by preventing that crap embedding in the bearings

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetai...d=D66SH&cat=13

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D66SH

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D82SH

these are even more tolerant of temp swings and retain strength at even higher engine oil temps plus they are smaller and easier to use

these come in different designs but youll want ones matching your application
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-66789/
http://www.summitracing.com/search/Part ... -Checkers/

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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-7901-1/

GET THE CLEARANCES WRONG OR OVER REV THE ENGINE AND BAD THINGS CAN OCCUR
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when the push rod geometry is correct, this is what the rocker rub marks look like on the valve tip
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don,t put absolute trust in a cam cards info, thats one factor I constantly find where the printed info, that comes on the cam cards , varies so much, from reality , that the only way you can know exactly what the truth is, is with a dial indicator on YOUR engine with YOUR cam.

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http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/eng ... index.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr_n0cL46NM
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Posts: 14105
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Re: cam install info

Postby grumpyvette » October 7th, 2008, 3:58 pm

a couple times Ive seen imported cam timing chain sets that were machined WAAAYY off from being correct, if you didn,t DEGREE IN your current CAM, and just used the index marks on the timing set, chances are good that your cams indexed incorrectly, as a first step Id strongly suggest verifying the cams degreeded in correctly
there is an EASY 6-8 degrees of potential movement in the indexed location of the cam in relation to the crank thru the use of either an off set crank keyway or woodrift key or drilling the cam sprocket hole for the index stud and use of offset bushings or both
The Cloyes® Patented 3-Keyway crank sprocket allows adjustment of the crankshaft timing by ±4°.
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look closely theres three crank key slots and each is marked, with the crank key (R or rectangle) =(retarded 4 degrees) (0) strait up) and (A or triangle) =(advanced 4 degrees) located at approximately the 2 0,clock position the related mark(R or rectangle)= (retarded 4 degrees) (0) strait up) and (A or triangle) advanced 4 degrees) is at the 12 o,clock location that you use to line up with the cam gear while thats indexed at approximately the 6 o,clock location, its fairly common to screw this up if your not paying attention and that can result in bent valves

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=90&p=114#p114

http://www.cloyes.com/HighPerformance/P ... fault.aspx

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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-4760/
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http://www.streetperformance.com/part/m ... -990g.html

http://www.andrewsproducts.com/Download ... _ezcam.pdf

http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/c ... rline.html

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

helicoil provided this picture
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youll need a few basic tools and a good understanding of what your doing, but its certainly not all that difficult.
lobe lift is simply the distance the lifter moves from the cams base circle to its max lift on the cam lobes nose, valve lift has the rocker ratio added , example
if your cam lifts the lifter 0.345 inches in its bore, as the cam lobe rotates under its base, and if you've got a 1.6:1 ratio rocker, your valve at least in theory moves to open to a full 0.552 inches lift

I was asked where to get a CHEAP degree wheel

http://www.factorypro.com/tech/tuning_c ... ow_to.html

heres one you can print out and save for engine builds on the engine stand
(put curser on an click)

http://savetheledges.org/test/AVS/image ... eWheel.png

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... umber=5645

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

BTW thats one of the functions of using a degree wheel to degree in a cam,.... it allows you too verify all changes,and correct mistakes vs guessing..... but just for your info....

MRG-988G
Crankshaft Key Type: Short
Crankshaft Key Length (in): 0.750 in.
Crankshaft Key Offset: 4 degree
Crankshaft Key Material: Steel
Crankshaft Key Color: Copper
Quantity: Sold individually.

Crankshaft Key, Short, 4 Degree Offset, Chevy/Ford/Pontiac/Mopar, Each


BTW you CAN advance or retard the roller timing chain its done bye drilling out the cam index pin hole in the timing gear and installing an off set bushing

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

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http://www.compcams.com/Technical/TimingTutorial/
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LCA (LOBE CENTERLINE ANGLES) lobe center angles can be changed thru indexing the cam when degreeing it in, LSA( LOBE SEPERATION ANGLE) is ground into the cam during manufacture

you could buy these from summit racing or similar parts from jegs
WHEN CRANK IS AT TWELVE AND CAM IS AT SIX THEN #6 CYL IS FIRING AFTER YOU LINE UP YOUR MARKS AND INSTALL GEAR THEN ROTATE YOUR CRANK ONE REVOLUTION AND THEN DROP THE DIST. IN - AT THAT POINT
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Image this is 180 degrees out (the distributor rotor points at cylinder #6, so before you drop in the distributor rotate the crank 360 degrees bring both marks to the 12 o-clock location, then drop in the distributor pointing to cylinder #1, and adjust ignition timing from that point

http://www.summitracing.com/

http://www.jegs.com sells this KIT
Comp Cams #249-4796

http://www.jegs.com/i/Comp%20Cams/249/4796/10002/-1

and you can buy these

MOR-62191 $44 (wheel)

MOR-61755 $47 (SBC)
MOR-61756 $47.(BBC)crank sockets

SUM-900188 $17 (piston stop, head off)
SUM-900189 $6.95(piston stop, head on)

TFS-90000 $94.95 (degree kit)

youll also want two flat tappet solid lifters and two weak check springs

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http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

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of course MEASURING HELPS VERIFY(m0ondoggy provided this excellent photo)
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http://album.hybridz.org/data/500/Degree_Wheel.JPG
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http://www.iskycams.com/camshaft.html

http://www.thedirtforum.com/degree.htm

http://www.ridgenet.net/~biesiade/camdegree.htm

http://www.hotrodder.com/kwkride/degree.html

http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/803.pdf

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com ... shaft.html

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Instr ... es/145.pdf
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
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Re: cam install info

Postby grumpyvette » October 7th, 2008, 4:23 pm

JUST TRYING TO FIND TDC??

you FIRST disconnect the battery and use a ratchet to spin the engine slowly by hand , useing the damper bolt and a 5/8 socket after removing the spark plugs, chalking the wheels and putting the cars trans in neutral

ways to turn over the engine WITHOUT the starter

theres large bolts for your ballancer
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theres crank sockets

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Crankshaft Socket Tool For turning AND MOUNTING Degree Wheels
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CRANK NUTS

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crank rotaters
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flywheel turning tools
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http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/80743/10002/-1

finding TDC

youll need a piston stop and degree wheel to be exact
but thats not 100% required unless you want it to work correctly???

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=CRN%2D99412%2D1&N=700+115&autoview=sku

read

http://www.2quicknovas.com/happyTDC.html
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida

Re: cam install info

Postby grumpyvette » October 29th, 2008, 5:44 pm

Cam Break-in Procedure

• Have a high quality service manual available, such as the factory service manual, or the vehicle specific manuals published by Chiltons, Motors, or Haynes. You will need these for the basic information regarding engine disassemble and reassemble along with the torque settings for the various fasteners.

• Read and understand the manual completely, along with these instructions before you begin working. We highly recommend you also have the assistance of a knowledgeable friend to assist you, especially during the initial fire-up and break-in period.

In addition to the normal installation procedure, installing a performance camshaft requires you to check for several extra items to insure long life and optimum performance.

• New Lifters Are A Must- There is no such thing as a good used lifter! Any flat faced lifter establishes a wear pattern almost immediately with the cam lobe it is riding on and cannot be used on any other cam lobe, let alone a different cam. Should you have a need to disassemble the engine, make sure you keep the lifters in order so they go back on to the exact same lobes.

• Valve Spring Pressure and Travel- We highly recommend purchasing the matching valve springs recommended in our catalog. This insures you will have the proper pressures, both closed and open, and sufficient travel to get the maximum rpm, performance and life from your new cam.

• Piston to Valve Clearance- While many performance cams will work just fine with stock pistons, there are many factors that effect your engine and the clearance available. Things such as factory tolerances, normal machine work such as head and block surfacing, aftermarket components such as cylinder heads, higher ratio rocker arms, etc. all effect your engines ability to handle a performance camshaft.

• Valve Train Interference- In addition to valve spring travel and piston-to-valve clearance, a commonly overlooked area is that of retainer to seal clearance. The other common area of interference is rocker arm to stud clearance along with rocker arm travel. The best way to check these is by physically opening both a intake and an exhaust valve on each cylinder head to the gross lift of the cam plus and additional .030". It is easiest to do this by pressing down on the rocker arm with one of the many tools available. Do not simply rotate the engine to the maximum lift point for a given valve. This does not work when engines are hydraulic lifter equipped, or even allow any margin of safety when you are using a mechanical lifter cam.

• Valve Adjustment- The easiest way to insure proper adjustment is to adjust the rocker arms as you install them, one cylinder at a time. Adjust the intake valve as the exhaust valve is just starting to open and adjust the exhaust valve when the intake valve is almost closed. It is simplest to do this with the intake manifold off and watching the lifter’s movement.

• Hydraulic Lifter Valve Adjustment- All engines, regardless of manufacture, require correct valve adjustment. Some engines, such as Chevrolet V-8’s, are equipped with stud mounted rocker arms can easily be adjusted to compensate for changes incurred during engine assembly. Never just torque the rocker arm into place and assume that the lifter preload will automatically be correct. Various engine manufacturers use multiple length pushrods, shims, and spacers to compensate for changes in preload. Hydraulic lifters cannot compensate for all changes. Ideal lifter preload is .020" to .080". Do not attempt to fill the lifters full of oil prior to installation. They will fill automatically once started and manually filling them makes adjusting the preload a difficult task.

• Mechanical Lifter Valve Adjustment- Adjusting mechanical lifters should be done the same way as outlined above, one valve at a time. For an initial setting, we recommend .003" to .005" than listed on the cam’s specification card. Once broken in and with the engine fully warmed up, re set the rocker arms to the cam’s specification sheet.

• Installation Lubricants- All flat faced (non-roller) camshafts require the use of high pressure lubricant supplied with your Erson cam on the bottom of the lifters, the lobes of the cam and on the distributor drive gear. Do not use this lube on the tips of the pushrods, the sides of the lifters or on the rocker arms. Use a quality oil when installing roller tappets.

BEFORE YOU TURN THE KEY

• Fill All of the Engine’s Fluids- Using a minimum of a SAE API SD, SE or better fresh clean mineral based oil, fill the engine to the proper level. Do not use synthetic oil during break-in. Fill the coolant system and follow the instructions on purging air from the system. With carburetor equipped engines, fill the carburetor to insure fuel is available immediately. Make sure that the ignition timing is properly set to insure immediate starting, without excess cranking of the engine.

• Pre-Lube the Engine- Using a oil pump priming tool such as those available from Mallory, spin the engine’s oil pump until you see pressure on the gauge or have oil at the rocker arms. Do not attempt to prime the engine using the starter motor!

• Proper Ventilation- Make sure that you do not start the engine without good airflow. That means have the overhead garage door open and the exhaust vented to the outside. If you have any doubts about sufficient airflow to the engine, push the car out of the garage to make sure the radiator can draw in plenty of air. Having a fan to blow fresh air through the garage is a plus.

• Exhaust System- If at all possible, start the car with a muffled exhaust system hooked up and operational. It makes it much easier to hear what is going on.

• Resist the Urge- Take a minute before you try to start the engine for the first time and double check that you are ready to go. Don’t take any short cuts or leave parts such as fan shrouds, air cleaner, wire looms, etc. off. Clean up the are around and especially under your vehicle. Pick up your tools and wipe up the floor so you can easily spot even a minor leak.

• Be Prepared- Have extra coolant or a hose handy, clean rags, tools for tightening clamps, connections, etc. just in case. They need to be in place to make sure you have an uneventful break-in of the camshaft.

WHEN THE ENGINE STARTS

• Have a Helper- Now is the time for a helper. They can check the coolant level, check for oil and fluid leaks, and proper operation of underhood accessories. Air pockets in the coolant system are common so make sure the recovery bottle is checked and filled as necessary. You cannot count on the temperature gauge. Temperature gauges are only accurate if the sensor is submerged in coolant and will not give an accurate reading if in an air pocket.

• Do Not Idle the Engine- As soon as the engine starts, raise the rpm to 2,000 rpm. You should also constantly vary the RPM between 2,000 and 3,000 RPM for the first 20 minutes. This is the only way to insure proper lubrication during this critical period since the camshaft to lifter contact area relies almost exclusively on oil splash from the crank and connecting rods. Make sure that you run the engine for a full 20 minutes using this procedure. It will seem like forever, but it is one of the most important steps to insure long, dependable performance.

Once Break-in is Complete- Drain and replace the engine oil and filter with new, fresh oil and a new filter. Recheck for any fluid leaks and check all fluid levels. If you installed a mechanical lifter style camshaft, flat faced or roller style, the valve adjustment should be rechecked at this time with the engine fully warmed up. Hydraulic lifter equipped engines should not require any readjustment.

Proper maintenance is important for any vehicle. Frequent oil changes, with a new filter is one of the easiest ways to insure your vehicle will deliver the performance you want for many long happy miles.
WATCH THIS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23sYBHH9 ... re=channel

ID ADD, USE a GOOD MOLY BASE ASSEMBLY LUBE AND A HIGH ZINC CONTENT OIL AND SOME G.M. E.O.S. TO THE OIL
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: cam install info

Postby grumpyvette » October 29th, 2008, 5:44 pm

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: cam install info

Postby grumpyvette » November 4th, 2008, 11:13 am

Gear drive VS chain cam drives,



Id first point out that a CLOYES true roller chain cam drive will work just fine in most applications, but you need to check the slack every 20,000 miles or so under the conditions most guys put street engines, but I constantly hear guys repeating the MYTH that gear drives cause harmonic loads to be transfered to the cam, Ive tested, and checked extensively and the gear drives tend to maintain the correct timing longer and have no bad problems and certainly last far longer than the chain drives WHEN CORRECTLY INSTALLED AND INDEXED
IF you want to index the cam drive or a chain drive,theres a fast simple answer that takes a bit less effort and work.

http://www.romac.com.au/Std_&_Offset_Crank_Info.pdf
Image

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku


you simply drill out the hole in the CAM timing gear that the cam pin inserts thru, then following the instructions carefully you insert the OFFSET bushing anfd then the bolts that hold the cam to the timing gear, it indexes the cam the desired degrees advance or retarded , depending on the bushing used and the location of the thick section on the bushing, then you install the cam button and retainer plate locking it solidly together.
NATURALLY YOULL CHECK THE RESULTS ON THE DEGREE WHEEL
Image
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

well, My opinion differs here!,
I tend to favor QUIET gear cam drives
Image

in PERFORMANCE ENGINE BUILDS,over chain drives , because chain drives get slack and tend to allow the cam timing to vary with rapid engine load changes like durring shifts

except in cars with KNOCK sensors, where the slight gear whine might cause the knock sensor to randomly retard the ignition timing.
Ive used several different brands and find nothing wrong with a CORRECLY INSTALLED Pete Jackson dual idler gear drive, in fact I’ve used that (QUIET) Pete Jackson gear drive, in the 383 that’s been in my corvette for several years with zero problems
as with most parts, installation must be correct, clearances checked, ETC. or you’ll HAVE PROBLEMS!, READ/UNDERSTAND THE INSTRUCTIONS, and ASK, QUESTIONS and know the reasons and answers , before installing any part or you’ll probably run into problems, Id have changed several chain drives bye this time, but the same gear drive I installed over 8 years ago still works fine and maintains the correct clearances
but Ill also point out I run a high volume oil pump, a 10 baffled QT oil pan and have extra oil jets drilled (#60 drill bit)in the oil passage plugs behind the cam gear

http://www.engineersedge.com/drill_sizes.htm]http://www.engineersedge.com/drill_sizes.htm
the two outside plugs

Image
the idlers seem to sort of float front to back. I guess install the balancer without the timing cover and check?


that’s part of the install process place (with the gasket) using a large lump of modeling clay , and dial calipers

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PM ... NO=9937412]http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=2079569&PMT4NO=9937412


http://www.officedepot.com/ddSKU.do?lev ... ue&An=text]http://www.officedepot.com/ddSKU.do?leve...rue&An=text


Under the timing cover and test bolt it in place, remove the clay an carefully measure the clearances..
(BTW spray the inside cover and the block with WD 40 first it tends to prevent the clay from sticking)the axles on the idler gears should have about a .002-.010 clearance between the cover and the block, this keeps the gears running in the same basic track once the engines assembled, you don,t want the axles to bind/or be in constant contact, under tension with the cover, as that might tip/bind the gear, and a light coat of moly on the gears won’t hurt. This frequently requires a light touch of a file to shorten the axles a few thousands, but youll not know without TESTING for the correct clearances with the clay :grin:

youll also need the retaining plate, cam button and loc-tite

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku]http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MOR%2D60460&N=115&autoview=sku

Image


Image

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G ... mage=large

in the future use a inch lb tq wrench, and some loctite on the bolt threads and don,t over tighten the bolts, the tabs on the plate bend up to keep the bolt from backing out, the loctite also prevents that

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LCT-3 ... mage=large
Image

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/KTI-72120/

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... umber=2696

Cam sprocket bolts 18-20 ft.-lbs or 230 inch lbs.

lets drop to basics,
the crank socket has an index groove that matches a key in the crank snout, and you must use the matched set of timing gears (cam and crank) not for example use the new cam gear with the old crank gear for two main reasons, first the old gears have formed a wear pattern, that won,t exactly match the new chain and that tends to accelerate wear on the new chain slightly, and second , different manufacturers tend to mark and index the gears slightly differently, and while in theory both the pin in the cam gear and the woodrif key in the crank gear limit the chances of a mis-match theres occasionally a couple of degrees of difference in mis-matched sets
be aware that some crank gears have more than one index slot to index to the crank key and each slot is marked and you must use the correct matching marks indicating (ZERO) that match the crank slot marks

Image
look closely SLOT A uses a different TDC mark (A) than slot (R), which has its own TDC mark(R)
Image
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=901&p=1462&hilit=puller#p1462
most guys oil the crank snout and heat the crank gear slightly and tap it on with a large socket

but yes theres a tool
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-4789/
Image
notice the (O) thats supposed to be indexed at 12 o,clock
and matched to a cam timing gear at 6 o,clock, which temporarily places the #6 cylinder at TDC, you then simply rotate the crank one complete turn, bring the cam timing gear to its 12 0,clock position,and the #1 cylinders at TDC and you can drop the intake on, and distributor in and adjust the valve lash clearance (solid lifters) or pre-load (hydraulic lifters, and set the ignition timing at about 8 degrees btdc as a starting location

you can use a dead blow hammer or the damper tool to install the gear
Image
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=41800

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/OTC-6505/

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=90

keep in mind the distributor drive the oil pump shaft drive and its base will only seat on that shaft end in two positions and the cam and distributor gear teeth must mesh so the distributor rotor will rotate as its seated, and the teeth engage
Image

Image

Image


how come its 180 degs out of phase?
I get this question all the time, well here’s something I see lots of guys don’t understand, ONCE YOU'VE INSTALLED A CAM WITH THE TIMING MARKS YOU MUST ROTATE THE CRANK 360 DEGREES BEFORE DROPPING IN THE DISTRIBUTOR, while its true that if the, timing marks are positioned so the crank is at 12 o,clock and the cam gear is at 6 o,clock that the cam lobes will be in the position that fires #6 cylinder that HAS NO EFFECT AT ALL (on finding TDC,) for aligning the degree wheel with TDC,or THE timing tab pointer, for degreeing in the cam, the piston passes thru TDC TWICE in every firing cycle once on the firing/power stroke and once on the exhaust stroke, the cam rotates at exactly 1/2 the speed of the crank so to make it easy to line up the marks they install it with the marks at the closest point 6/12 for easy indexing, rotate the engine 360 degrees to the #1 TDC power stroke and the crank gear will still be at 12 o'clock 12/12 but the cam will be at 12 o,clock also, rotate another 360 degrees and your back where you started. its simply easier to index the cam at the point where the index marks align closely. look at how the cam lobes themselves open the valves when the cam is just installed the #1 cylinder valves are slightly open and the #6 are closed per "Lunati" ‘’YES YOU ARE RIGHT - WHEN CRANK IS AT TWELVE AND CAM IS AT SIX THEN #6 CYL IS FIRING AFTER YOU LINE UP YOUR MARKS AND INSTALL GEAR THEN ROTATE YOUR CRANK ONE REVOLUTION AND THEN DROP THE DIST. IN - AT THAT POINT
WHEN CRANK IS AT TWELVE AND CAM IS AT SIX THEN #6 CYL IS FIRING AFTER YOU LINE UP YOUR MARKS AND INSTALL GEAR THEN ROTATE YOUR CRANK ONE REVOLUTION AND THEN DROP THE DIST. IN - AT THAT POINT
Image


Image

http://boxwrench.net/specs/chevy_sb.htm
Image
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: cam install info

Postby grumpyvette » December 20th, 2008, 8:10 am

keep in mind youll need to check the cam lobe to connecting rod clearances as they pass very close to each other on some cylinders at some points in thier rotation,finding out if youll need to grind clearances on the upper edge of some rod bolts needs to be verified, durring assembly,
the answer depends BOTH on the max lift, durration and LCA of the cam and the design of the connecting rods outer profile, IE wher it sticks out and how far it sticks out away from the crank journal. its the upper rod bolt area near the crank journal that tends to hit the cam lobes on sone cylinders, and you should verify about a .060 clearance between lobes and connecting rods durring the assembly process, AFTER degreeing in the cam, I usually use a large paper clip as a gauge, if it easily passes between the lobe and the rod bolt at thier closest point thier tangent rotational arcs youll be ok.once EITHER the duration exceeds about 225 @ .050 or the lift exceeds about .520 in a 383 SBC youll probably have clearance issues with stock connecting rods,and the cam lobes, aftermarket (H) or SOME (I) style stroker rods with 7/16" capscrew bolts are stronger and profiled to clear and use of both a small base billet roller cam and stroker profile rods will usually prevent that


GOSFAST posted this great photo to illustrate the differance between rod designs

Image
it should be obvious that the connecting rod on the right has some extra clearance to the cams lobe rotation arc.

http://www.scatcrankshafts.com/index.htm

rods designed like the 3 SERIES generally won,t work with stroker cranks while the 2 series usually will , yeah! you won,t be the first guy to install the cam, then just pull the spark plugs and spin the engine over by hand with a ratchet and then attempt to (FEEL) any interferance as it rotates.
In most cases if your useing stock type connecting rods with a cam having anything UNDER about a .500 lift and UNDER about 225 dur. @.050 lift is UNLIKELY to have problems, with the cam lobe to connecting rods,.and you could get by with a larger cam in some combos easily,
and that interferance might be coil bind, rocker slot to rocker stud, piston to valve,retainer to valve guide, cam to connecting rod,pushrod to guide plate, or a DOZEN other factors.

, but checking clearances carefully is ALWAYS the prefered route!
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: cam install info

Postby grumpyvette » December 26th, 2008, 10:33 am

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

Image

you use a CRANK SOCKET to index the crank so the lower crank gear is at 12 oclock and the cam gear is at 6 oclock, and don,t for get to spin the engine one full revolution so the cam and crank gear are at 12 oclock before dropping in the distributor so the rotar points at the #1 cylinder or it will be 180 degrees out.

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=902

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=90
its false economy to do things cheaply if its very likely to result in less than ideal performance or problems with relieability.
the cam and crank gear are a matched set, and reuse of the old crank gear is NOT advised!
theres several totally differant types of chains and the gears and clearances are NOT always ,interchangeable ,... use of the wrong gear CAN cause excessive wear.
CLOYES makes TRUE ROLLER SETS that last longer and stretch less than the cheap imported link belt chains, that sell for $20 in the auto parts stores, its not un-common for the cheap sets to have the index off several degrees, and if you don,t degree in the cam its not un-common to have an engine run at less than its potential with the cam timing being off several degrees
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=CLO%2D9%2D3100&autoview=sku

btw

its a good idea to mix some crane cams (MOLY) assembly lube and some marvel mystery oil in a tinfoil pan and soak the timing set in the mix for a few minutes before installing them, coating the surfaces tends to lower the tendency to wear as the moly forms a chemical layer that penetrates into the metals surface and protects it.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: cam install info, degree it in correctly and get it to last

Postby grumpyvette » January 6th, 2009, 6:01 pm

IF your just installing the cam, without degreeing it in at this point, I'm forced too think by that ,your NOT taking the effort to use a degree wheel and dial indicator and degree in your cam??

if SO, keep in mind
the crank slot the keyway seats in
the crank gear
the cam it self
the cam gear
ALL can be easily machined off a degree or so from ideal, and that can and MOST LIKELY WILL cause the cam to be a bit off the intended location if its installed with you relying solely on the manufacturers index marks alone.


OK,maybe this helps

the sprockets are marked differently,
the typical DOT -TO -DOT uses a 0 on both the keyway and the cam sprocket outer diam.

Image

The Cloyes® Patented 3-Keyway crank sprocket allows adjustment of the crankshaft timing by ±4°.

Remember: The camshaft angle is half of the crankshaft angle, therefore the camshaft will correspondingly advance or retard by ±2°.

By changing the cam timing, enhancements to the camshaft characteristics can be achieved. For example, retarding the cam timing will increase high RPM horsepower, and advancing the cam timing will increase low-end torque.

Applications
Indicates Standard Camshaft Timing
A TRIANGLE SYMBOL
or the letter A Advances The Camshaft Timing 4 Degrees
a RECTANGLE SYMBOLor the letter R Retards The Camshaft Timing 4 Degrees
BUT THEY MUST BE INSTALLED WITH THE MATCHED KEYWAY
Example: To advance the camshaft 4 degrees, you install the crankshaft
sprocket using the keyway marked or A. Then you align the or A mark on
the outer edge of the sprocket with the dot marked on the camshaft sprocket,
mark to mark.You must use the corresponding marks on the crankshaft
sprocket for proper installation.

1. Keyway marked with l or 0 (zero) is for standard
“straight-up” timing.
2. Keyway marked with S or A is to advance cam timing 4°.
3. Keyway marked with N or R is to retard cam timing 4°.

the best route to take is to first install the cam with the typical DOT -TO -DOT that uses a 0 on both the keyway and the cam sprocket outer dia.
now remove the crank and cam sprocket set and re-install them with the correct keyway and cam marks you'll see the cam, must advance or retard just a few degrees, the crank won,t be moved to re-align properly, if you need to make other than minimal fine changes in the cam rotation theres something not correct.

watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdIGZ-tVuZA


http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new ... 0/7880.pdf

look thru and read the links, examine the pictures CAREFULLY

http://www.performancedepot.com/ART/pro ... 0_Inst.pdf

http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/c ... index.html

"GRUMPYVETTE, you've said you generally retard cams 4 degrees, or install them strait up, vs advanced ,if that's the case, would you explain why?"

(1) BECAUSE it tends to lower the tendency toward detonation on pump gas if you get a bad batch, as it bleeds off just a bit more low rpm cylinder pressure.and I generally try to maximize the useful compression ratio, in the cams effective rpm band and don,t try to over cam engines, if you add 4 degrees of retard to your calculations and see what I mean, then run it both ways on DD 2000 and see the difference it makes
(2) it moves the whole torque curve about 200rpm higher.
(3)many cams have an extra 4 degrees advance built into them at the (DOT-TO_DOT) install position, that's there to boost low rpm tq at the expense of the upper mid range and peak hp, something than many cam companies do to compensate a bit for the vast majority of guys who consistently select cams a bit larger in duration than IDEAL for the application, or tend to ignore the fact that a cars generally used by most customers far more often on the low and mid rpm band than they will admit..
(4) in this case you'll need the upper rpm torque far more than the off idle torque.

don,t forget as many guys do, that swapping to a higher ratio rocker changes the push-rod rocker geometry,and clearances, and may require a different length push-rods.

Image

Image
Image


viewtopic.php?f=44&t=2839&p=7344&hilit=adjustable+guide#p7344

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=126&hilit=louis+rocker
Image

and you may need too use the correct adjustable guide plates when you find the push-rod alignment is in need of minor tweaking to get the clearance and geometry correct

Image
Image
Image

using a louis tool, this tool is a GUIDE /tool for use with a high quality DRILL,its made of HARDENED STEEL that FORCES the DRILL BIT to drill thru the head to correctly lengthen the push-rod slot for increased clearance, they usually come WITH INSTRUCTIONS AND THE NECESSARY DRILL
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: cam install info, degree it in correctly and get it to l

Postby grumpyvette » January 15th, 2009, 7:20 am


YOULL WANT THESE TOOLS LISTED BELOW ALSO

Ive used mine only a few dozen times but its well worth the money (I previously used two solid lifters I epoxied together on hydraulic or solid lifter flat tappet cams OR a pair of solid roller lifters Id brazed dimes into to measure from on roller cams)
the first time you degree in a cam, you wonder how difficult this COMPLEX PROCEDURE will be, but after doing it MANY DOZENS of TIMES it amazes you that you worried about it the first few times.
Image
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Image
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Image
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Image
Image

Image
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku
Image

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku
Image


http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... =PRO-66830
Image

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... =MOR-61755
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MOR-61755/
Image
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MOR-62191/
Image

THE LONGER I USE THE MOROSO DEGREE WHEEL AND BBC CRANK SOCKET THE MORE IVE COME TO APPRECIATE THEM,, BTW the COMP CAMS SBC VERSION IS BELOW
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-4 ... refilter=1
Image
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: degree it in correctly and get it to last,cam install info,

Postby grumpyvette » January 30th, 2009, 11:41 am

Tuning Tips: Tuning your camshaft for Maximum Power
Written for Oval Track Racers (but applies to most engines)
by Charles Reichard

Most Stock Car racers have been faced with trying different cams in their cars and not seeing the results they think they should. Frequently this is followed by selling or giving the cam to a fellow racer who finds it is the best cam he ever ran. Why did this cam work so well for one racer and not for another? The reasons can be many.

Driver style plays a big part in the picture. A driver who can keep the rpm up in the turns will be able to use a bigger cam than one who drops a lot of rpm. The same cam in the car with lower turn speeds will not have enough torque at the turn exit because it will be below the maximum power band.

Car setup and the ability of the driver to accurately feel what the car is doing is more important than the last 20 horsepower. This is especially true with dirt cars. I have talked to few racers that can't hook up 600 LB/ft of torque on 8 inch tires if you can give it to them. However the more power out of the turns you give them the slower they go. This is frequently due to driver interpretation of poor acceleration as lack of power rather than wheel spin. While it seems that any driver with some experience can tell when he is spinning wheels, it apparently isn't that easy. Many experienced top drivers admit it is hard to differentiate between wheel spin and lack of power except in extreme cases. It is often helpful to paint a small section of a rear tire and have an observer watch the car in the turns for signs of excessive wheel spin.

Failure to accurately degree in the camshaft is another culprit. There can easily be 4 or even 6 degree variations in different brands of timing sets. Proper valve timing quickly becomes a crap shoot without a degree wheel. Published valve timing is only a suggested starting point based on dyno testing and track experience. There are variables that may call for different valve timing in your specific combination. If you don't know where your valve timing is then the cam grinder or engine builder cannot recommend changes to help you get the most out of your engine.

Now is a good time to mention that while your cam grinder or engine builder should be able to supply you with a cam appropriate for your application, it will be necessary in most cases to change jetting and fine tune the cam timing and lash settings to the driver's preference and ability. The cam grinder or engine builder cannot know about driving styles and rpm ranges in your application without good accurate information on which to base his recommendations.

There are two easy ways to change the characteristics of your cam. Advancing and retarding the cam can move the power band up or down a few hundred rpm. Advance for more bottom end and retard for more top end. It usually takes about a 4 degree change for a driver to feel it. The second way is to change the valve lash. Tightening the lash will increase the top end power while loosening it will increase bottom end power. You won't hurt anything by tightening the lash but check with your cam grinder as to the maximum lash you can use before running off the ramp and damaging the valves. When making these changes, increases at one end mean decreases at the other end.

When checking valve to piston clearance be sure to check it with the cam advanced and retarded about 6 degrees from the recommended point to allow for any timing changes you may need to make in the future. Making these changes to cam timing is important to not only optimize your present combination but to indicate a direction for future cam changes.

Let's examine two scenarios. Car A is slow off the turns (no wheel spin) but has great power the last half of the straights. Loosening the valve lash (or advancing the cam) will increase power out of the turns with a slight power loss at top rpm.

Car B is slow off the turns but suffers from excessive wheel spin. The cure here is to kill a little power off the turns by tightening the lash (or retarding the cam). This will enable the car to hook up and get more power to the ground. Increased top end power will be an added bonus but the real need was to get horsepower off the corners down to a level that the car and driver can handle.

Changing to a milder cam for car A or a larger cam in car B will accomplish the same thing but at a much higher cost in time as well as dollars.

One other important thing is knowing the minimum rpm encountered. Few drivers can accurately tell you what their lowest rpm really is. It is hard to be fast if your cam has a power range of 4500 to 7000 and your restarts are 3500. The lowest rpm encountered is as important as the maximum when selecting the proper cam.


IMPORTANT NOTE!

If you see little or no change in performance after all of these changes (you did do all of them didn't you?) the problem is most certainly NOT the camshaft. It's time to look elsewhere.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: degree it in correctly and get it to last,cam install in

Postby grumpyvette » February 1st, 2009, 10:08 am

BTW, if your building a low budget big block...

http://www.survivalmotorsports.com/Chev ... Cams2.html

has a very good selection of flat tappet big block cams that closely duplicate the factory and some popular aftermarket cams at excellent prices

Part Number SS4242
(makes a good hot muscle car cam in many combos)

Part Number SS4264= L88 cam O.E. #3928911
(want that lumpy idle in a 11:1 cpr manual trans 454)

Image

Part Number SS4265= ZL1 cam O.E. #3959180
(KILLER IN A HIGH CPR 496 stroker, matched to the right combo)

color=#008000]If your having a problem indexing a cam , installing a distributor or timing the engine its supposed to be at TDC, during the install as a starting point and ID highly recommend degreeing in the cam vs the dot-to-dot process,you might want to re-read these threads again,CAREFULLY as both the threads and sub links hold a great deal of info, don,t rush the process its MANDATORY YOU GET IT CORRECT, doing it FAST is, far down the list
[/color]
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=966

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=1015&p=1864&hilit=+tabs#p1864

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=90

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=464

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=196

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=528

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=1411


Image

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-67492/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-67491/

lets drop to basics,
the crank socket has an index groove that matches a key in the crank snout, and you must use the matched set of timing gears (cam and crank) not for example use the new cam gear with the old crank gear for two main reasons, first the old gears have formed a wear pattern, that won,t exactly match the new chain and that tends to accelerate wear on the new chain slightly, and second , different manufacturers tend to mark and index the gears slightly differently, and while in theory both the pin in the cam gear and the woodrif key in the crank gear limit the chances of a mis-match theres occasionally a couple of degrees of difference in mis-matched sets
be aware that some crank gears have more than one index slot to index to the crank key and each slot is marked and you must use the correct matching marks indicating (ZERO) that match the crank slot marks

Image
look closely SLOT A uses a different TDC mark (A) than slot (R), which has its own TDC mark(R)
Image
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=901&p=1462&hilit=puller#p1462
most guys oil the crank snout and heat the crank gear slightly and tap it on with a large socket

but yes theres a tool
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-4789/
Image
notice the (O) thats supposed to be indexed at 12 o,clock
and matched to a cam timing gear at 6 o,clock, which temporarily places the #6 cylinder at TDC, you then simply rotate the crank one complete turn, bring the cam timing gear to its 12 0,clock position,and the #1 cylinders at TDC and you can drop the intake on, and distributor in and adjust the valve lash clearance (solid lifters) or pre-load (hydraulic lifters, and set the ignition timing at about 8 degrees btdc as a starting location

you can use a dead blow hammer or the damper tool to install the gear
Image
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=41800

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/OTC-6505/

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=90

Assuming a constant lobe center angle

Longer duration
more peak power, rougher idle,
higher fuel consumption,
higher emissions,
less torque at low RPMs,
power peak occurs at higher RPM,
power rpm band widens and moves up

Shorter duration
the opposite of the above results


Assuming constant duration

Tighter lobe centers
more peak power,
higher fuel consumption
rougher idle
more torque at low RPMS,
peak power occurs at LOWER RPM,
higher emissions,
power RPM band gets narrower and moves DOWN

Wider lobe centers
opposite of above


Assuming constant lobe centers and cam duration

Advancing the cam
slightly improved low rpm torque,
slightly reduced peak power
imperceptible change in emissions, idle & fuel consumption

Retarding the cam
opposite of the above
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: degree it in correctly and get it to last,cam install in

Postby grumpyvette » October 10th, 2010, 4:02 pm

THE cam gear rotates exactly once for each two times the crank rotates,the cam gear lines up at the 12 o'clock crank and 6 o'clock cam gear orientation when the #6 cylinders on the compression stroke, rotate the engine one complete revolution and the cranks again at 12 o'clock but the cam gears index mark is now at 12 o'clock, indicating the #1 cylinders at the compression stroke, you use the 12/6 index to install cams simply because its easier to align correctly ,visually, but you need to rotate the engine to the 12/12 orientation before dropping the distributor back in, the distributor won,t fully seat unless the oil pump drive shaft seats up into the distributor gear, as you remove the distributor the helical gear interface tends to turn the pump drive shaft slightly, you can use a long flat tip screw driver to turn that back to the correct location and with a bit of practice you'll learn to gauge the amount the rotor rotates as it seats into the cam gear.



The CLOYES true roller style is vastly superior to the factory link belt design

Image


how come its 180 degs out of phase?
I get this question all the time, well here’s something I see lots of guys don’t understand, ONCE YOUVE INSTALLED A CAM WITH THE TIMEING MARKS YOU MUST ROTATE THE CRANK 360 DEGRESS BEFORE DROPPING IN THE DISTRIBUTOR, while its true that if the, timing marks are positioned so the crank is at 12 o,clock and the cam gear is at 6 o,clock that the cam lobes will be in the position that fires #6 cylinder that HAS NO EFFECT AT ALL (on finding TDC,) for aligning the degree wheel with TDC,or THE timing tab pointer, for degreeing in the cam, the piston passes thru TDC TWICE in every firing cycle once on the firing/power stroke and once on the exhaust stroke, the cam rotates at exactly 1/2 the speed of the crank so to make it easy to line up the marks they install it with the marks at the closest point 6/12 for easy indexing, rotate the engine 360 degrees to the #1 TDC power stroke and the crank gear will still be at 12 oclock 12/12 but the cam will be at 12 o,clock also, rotate another 360 degrees and your back where you started. its simply easier to index the cam at the point where the index marks align closely. look at how the cam lobes themselves open the valves when the cam is just installed the #1 cylinder valves are slightly open and the #6 are closed per "Lunati" ‘’YES YOU ARE RIGHT - WHEN CRANK IS AT TWELVE AND CAM IS AT SIX THEN #6 CYL IS FIRING AFTER YOU LINE UP YOUR MARKS AND INSTALL GEAR THEN ROTATE YOUR CRANK ONE REVOLUTION AND THEN DROP THE DIST. IN - AT THAT POINT
WHEN CRANK IS AT TWELVE AND CAM IS AT SIX THEN #6 CYL IS FIRING AFTER YOU LINE UP YOUR MARKS AND INSTALL GEAR THEN ROTATE YOUR CRANK ONE REVOLUTION AND THEN DROP THE DIST. IN - AT THAT POINT
Image


Image

http://boxwrench.net/specs/chevy_sb.htm
Image

look here


Image


drop the distributor in with the rotor pointing at the #1 cylinder, and YEAH! it physically possible to get the distributors rotor to point at any place you want it too by changing the oil pump drive shaft alignment with a large flat blade screw driver while the distributors out of the engine and thats easily changed, but to do it correctly,you want the rotor to point at the #1 cylinder on the compression stroke, so pull the #1 plug, get a large ratchet/socket on the damper and put your finger over the open plug hole and slowly rotate the engine by hand in its normal rotational direction until you see pressure build under your finger as the rotor approaches #1 cylinder location on the distributor base which you should have marked as its supposed to be in direct alignment between the distributor and the number 1 cylinder on the engine, remember the distributor and cam gears are heilical and the rotor turns as it seats so compensate slightly. and the rotor should be just coming into alignment as pressure builds under your finger, once thats done re-install the distributor cap and plug and use a timing light to set the timing, you normally want about 6-12 degrees BTDC at idle and watch it advance to about 37 degrees as the rpms build to about 3000rpm


btw when you install cam bearings


read thru this link CAREFULLY

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=1479


Image

the location of the oil holes effects the OIL WEDGE and LOAD SUPPORT EFFICIENCY

Image


theres a GROOVE UNDER THE CAM BEARING SO IT CAN BE INSTALLED WITH THE HOLES IN ANY LOCATION, but some locations offer greater load support. and not all bearings will fit all locations

Image
Image

Image
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Posts: 14105
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do you really need to degree in a cam, won,t using the facto

Postby grumpyvette » September 28th, 2011, 7:41 am

" GRUMPYVETTE? do you really need to degree in a cam, won,t using the factory timing marks on the timing set place it right where it needs to be?"


thats one of the most common questions I get asked!
all manufactured parts have some tolerances, and in a worse case , those tolerances could all stack up to move the cam timing a significant amount but in most cases they tend to average out and you find installing a cam with the factory marks puts it within 2-3 degrees of where its intended to be, 2-3 degrees only moves the power band about 100-150rpm so most people won,t be able to even tell, if a cams not operating exactly as its designed, but after you start using a degree wheel and dial indicator to VERIFY you'll occasionally find extreme examples of badly indexed parts, I once found a timing gear and chain set in a guys car that was running poorly that was a full 7 degrees out of time (IMPORTED $19 set he said he bought at the local auto parts store) so its very possible if you used non-name brand parts , which don,t on average have the same quality and attention to detail taken during the manufacturing process,to have parts youll find too be significantly out of time, and given that many cams are factory indexed to be 4 degrees advanced that put the cam a full 11 degrees out from the split overlap location, making the car run like crap,if you used cheap import parts your much more likely to find your having problems but in any case its a good idea to know your cams indexed correctly
Image
yes you can use the factory marks to install a cam but it will rarely be within 2 degrees of being perfectly indexed

Image
Image

Image

yes it takes more time and effort to do correctly and some tools but it generally helps power and durability

Image


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-67492/

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=8582&p=30180#p30180

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-67491/

READ THRU ALL THESE THREADS

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=90

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4548

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=401

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3280

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=399

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=4712&p=12798&hilit=degree+wheel#p12798

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3745&p=9934&hilit=degree+wheel#p9934

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4957
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida

Re: do you really need to degree in a cam, won,t using the f

Postby grumpyvette » January 5th, 2013, 12:43 pm

" hey grumpy , what do I do now?
I purchased a SBC hydraulic roller.
HERES THE LISTED
Valve events at .050 listed on cam card:

IO 8º BTDC
IC 40º ABDC
EO 48º BBDC
EC 0º ATDC

As found:
IO 7º BTDC
IC 46º ABDC
EO 47º BBDC
EC 6º ATDC

Another thing, This is suppose to be a 228/228 duration at .050 cam. It measures 233 on both the intake and exhaust. What is the deal with that?

Specs on cam is 228/228 at .050 280/280 at .006 110LSA 4º advance. install intake lobe to 106º centerline.

7+180+46=233 intake
47+180+6=233 exhaust

Also done the Intake centerline method and got 109º which tells me I need to advance the cam 3º to put it at 106

I am very confident I have found true TDC. I am using a fixture that fits in the lifter bore with indicator that reads directly off the lobe for the degreeing process."



welcome to reality, I rarely find cams that exactly match the cam cards specs, when actually checking with the correct tools
(although crane and crower do tend to be better on average, in my experience.)
If you have double checked your measurements and verified they are correct,
youve found the cam you selected is not what you ordered, but its not a huge difference from what you intended to use.
you can expect that cam to run a bit rougher and produce a bit less low rpm power and a bit more peak power,
you have a decision to make, you can send it back or just use it!
I can tell you from experience, that your going to find thats not the last cam youll see that fails to exactly match the printed specs
I have found a few cams that, right out of the box were even further from the posted specs,in fact I suspect at times cams simply get the wrong part numbers stamped on them or get put in the wrong packing,, so checking at least lets you know what your dealling with.
and if you were to install that cam, with the common dot-to-dot method used by most guys you would never have known it was not matched to the specs you expected to be running.

LINKS YOU WILL FIND USEFUL


viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1477&p=3329&hilit=reading+card#p3329

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1759&p=4441&hilit=cam+degree+tools#p4441

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=27&p=35&hilit=cam+degree+tools#p35

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181&p=215&hilit=cam+degree+tools#p215
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida

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