harmonic balancer



harmonic balancer

Postby keywestjack » October 7th, 2010, 3:40 pm

Hey Grumpy, I have had the engine for my 1977 L48 Corvette rebuilt. Bored stroked etc. The balancer looks ok but I got to thinking it is over 30yrs old, and the engine is out of the car. Would you recommend replacing or am I just waisting money. Thanks, Jack
WHAT EVER IT IS I'M AGAINST IT
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Re: harmonic balencer

Postby grumpyvette » October 7th, 2010, 4:05 pm

If your going to re-use it ,Id suggest having a machine shop inspect it for deterioration, of its elastomer ring and the machine shop will need to check it for cracks,and a loose or defective rubber ring binding the inner and outer hubs, provided its only going to be used on an engine used for daily transportation.
theres hundreds of thousands of old O.E.M. balancer's being used on street car engines and failures are not that common in street use, but once you start running the engines up above about 5000rpms the stress increases and that ring tends to over time degrade and fail,
chances are good that the elastomer is worn or starting to deteriorate after 30 years,

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=966

http://www.jegs.com/p/ATI/ATI-Super-Dam ... 7/10002/-1
MOST NASCAR TEAMS USE ATI DAMPERS AND THEY CERTAINLY HAVE THE TEST DATA TO SUPPORT THE CHOICE

the stock TYPE balancer has a rubber ring glued between the inner hub and outer inertial ring and yes they do deteriorate over time and have been known to slip, especially if subjected to being oil soaked over time, or someone used a hammer vs the correct tool to get it back on the crank
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READ THIS LINK
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=966

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if your front crank seal leaks over time it can dissolve the elastic between the inner and outer damper hub weights
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Measure the crank-snout diameter with a micrometer (above left). Ours measured 1.600 inch, which is right on spec. Then use a dial-bore gauge to determine the inside diameter of the Fluidampr damper (below). Ours came in 1.599-inch, resulting in a .001-inch interference fit. This is the right amount of clearance to provide a good snug fit on the crankshaft, but still be able to install and remove without difficulty. Another method of measuring the damper hub ID of your is with a snap gauge (above right). After setting the gauge, the micrometer is used to to determine the final measurement. In this case, the same measurement as the dial bore gage was reached.
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YOU can do a quick test to see if the inner and outer damper ring bond is loose,degrease the damper with some carburetor cleaner spray, then grab your wifes bottle of brite red or orange nail polish, and Draw a line on the front of the balancer across both the inner and outer hub rings, with the little paint brush under the cap, . Start the car , once it warms up reve the engine to 3500 rpm or so 6-7 times and inspect that nail polish line location, too see if the lines continue to align using the timing light. or turn off the engine and and use a brite flash lite ,If the lines are not,still lined up, the outer hub ring is slipping which misaligned the timing mark. So you end up the timing well out of speck and who knows where in relation to true TDC,.
Id suggest replacing your balancer immediately if its outer ring is loose with an SFI certified damper matching your application.


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there is supposed to be about a .0001 -.0002 INTERFERENCE fit! so the damper has far less tendency to spin on the crank snout or work the woodriff key loose, you can generally polish the crank snout, and internal damper hole with a flap wheel and 400 grit sand paper enough to get a smoother surface, then, place the damper in boiling water to heat and expand it and oil its mating surface, use the correct damper installation tool, pick the damper up with oven mitts so you don,t get burned, use the tool to install it

http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampe ... ctions.htm

read these threads and links

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=223&p=8024&hilit=damper+tool#p8024

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=3554&p=13385&hilit=damper+tool#p13385

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http://www.autozone.com/autozone/repair ... 52800a7dbe

http://www.go-fast.org/z28/damper.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8PUFNlTFqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex_yJ_V5 ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9LNht9E ... ure=relmfu

use the correct tool to install the balancer
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/OTC-6505/?rtype=10
watch video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QORm5fnCvYA&NR=1
READ THIS THREAD
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=562&hilit=+damper
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KEEP IN MIND
a replacement O.E.M. style balancer will cost less than $55-$65

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PFS-80000/ (AVOID THIS)
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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-161358/?rtype=10
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ImageGOOD
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FLU-650201/

now if your going to spin that engine up in the 6000rpm or greater range on occasion it may be a good idea to replace it with a SFI certified balancer, which is REQUIRED to run your car in many classes at most tracks

an S.F.I. balancer will cost a good deal more but its also far less likely to explode on hard high rpm shifts
and while Id strongly suggest their use on a high rpm race engine ID buy the S.F.I flywheel, clutch assembly, and a blow proof lake-wood bell housing before a balancer,, simply due to the fact that your less likely to loose your feet if a balancer comes apart at high rpms than if a clutch or flywheel shatters and large shrapnel chunks comes up thru your dash board

Image (very good)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TCI-870001/
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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFS-19000/
Image (best)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATI-917060/

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viewtopic.php?f=50&t=1804&p=4633&hilit=damper+tool#p4633

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=447&hilit=lakewood

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=31&p=787&hilit=+bell+housing#p787

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=279&p=1684&hilit=+damper#p1684

posting.php?mode=edit&f=53&t=1042&p=1969

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=562&hilit=+damper
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: harmonic balencer

Postby keywestjack » October 9th, 2010, 6:29 pm

Thanks Grumpy, I can always count on you and this board for good information, Jack
WHAT EVER IT IS I'M AGAINST IT
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Re: harmonic balencer

Postby grumpyvette » April 18th, 2011, 10:42 am

"Professional-Products" brand is mfd. in China.
and while they have a STICKER that says they are SFI certified thats obviously B.S.

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a series of Balancer tests (600 RPM/SEC)
1-Moroso solid aluminum hub SFI
2-Stock new GM balancer
3-Rattler
4-ATI

as you can guess,
the Moroso solid alum hub made the least HP/TQ

and the HP/TQ order was
Best=> ATI
2nd= Rattler
3rd= GM
4th= Solid SFI Hub

the solid hub made LESS HP/TQ than stock GM balancer
although it was by far the "lightest" in weight

the ATI from memory was 10-12 HP better than GM balancer
and the Rattler was within a few HP/TQ of the ATI, very close.

the Rattler made a little rattling noise only when setting valves
by using the Starter
and was immediately silent as soon as Engine was running on Dyno.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: harmonic balancer

Postby grumpyvette » May 21st, 2011, 11:09 am

" GRUMPY?
I had this FLUID DAMPER BALANCER on an engine several years ago or my Fluidamper/ Street damper has been sitting on the shelf while I have been finishing my engine. Will the part need inspection or testing?"

http://www.fluidampr.com/CHEVROLET.htm

http://www.fluidampr.com/ASKTECH/7.html

http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/c ... to_12.html

http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampe ... ctions.htm

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Measure the crank-snout diameter with a micrometer (above left). Ours measured 1.600 inch, which is right on spec. Then use a dial-bore gauge to determine the inside diameter of the Fluidampr damper (below). Ours came in 1.599-inch, resulting in a .001-inch interference fit. This is the right amount of clearance to provide a good snug fit on the crankshaft, but still be able to install and remove without difficulty. Another method of measuring the damper hub ID of your is with a snap gauge (above right). After setting the gauge, the micrometer is used to to determine the final measurement. In this case, the same measurement as the dial bore gage was reached.
No. The inertia ring is always freely floating inside the housing. The silicone fluid is guaranteed to last forever. As long as the damper was never physically abused (hit with a hammer), installed properly with an installer tool or a bolt and washer, and as long as the damper maintains a tight press fit on the crankshaft, there is nothing that can go wrong with the damper. It is important to check for corrosion or pitting on the seal surface of the damper, before installation. The seal surface should be smooth and free from rust and corrosion. As with most any performance part, if it is physically damaged from an accident or a fire, the damper should be replaced.
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http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampe ... mchevy.htm

http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampers/101/index.htm

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_te ... orbers.htm

http://www.bhjdynamics.com/downloads/pd ... r_Info.pdf

http://www.innovatorswest.com/store/ind ... at&catId=1

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PIO-872025/
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: harmonic balancer

Postby grumpyvette » April 23rd, 2012, 4:01 pm

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: harmonic balancer

Postby Michael » October 2nd, 2012, 10:36 pm

Grumpy,

I'm thinking of replacing the stock damper on my Mark IV 454 with this one from ATI: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATI-917740/ .

My engine has an externally-balanced 4.00" stock crank, and is originally from a 1978 Suburban. It has lots of fairly impressive top-end parts, but the rotating assembly is stock-ish. I do already have an SFI aluminum flywheel and "blowproof" bellhousing. The stock damper is 8" outer-diameter. My goals are a damper that's reliable at high-rpm, has accurate and visible timing-markings, and maybe saves some weight over stock. Will the ATI unit linked above work, or would I need one that's 8" diameter? I don't want to rebalance my rotating assembly (it has already been balanced at a good machine shop).
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Re: harmonic balancer

Postby mathd » October 3rd, 2012, 7:11 am

I know on the 6.5 diesel engine that if the rubber between the inner and outer hub of the damper got broken it can break the crankshaft. So i guess its goo to make sure its good on any engine.
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Re: harmonic balancer

Postby grumpyvette » October 3rd, 2012, 9:56 am

Michael wrote:Grumpy,

I'm thinking of replacing the stock damper on my Mark IV 454 with this one from ATI: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATI-917740/ .

My engine has an externally-balanced 4.00" stock crank, and is originally from a 1978 Suburban. It has lots of fairly impressive top-end parts, but the rotating assembly is stock-ish. I do already have an SFI aluminum flywheel and "blowproof" bellhousing. The stock damper is 8" outer-diameter. My goals are a damper that's reliable at high-rpm, has accurate and visible timing-markings, and maybe saves some weight over stock. Will the ATI unit linked above work, or would I need one that's 8" diameter? I don't want to rebalance my rotating assembly (it has already been balanced at a good machine shop).


if you ever have doubts, about any component in a certain application, the first reasonable step is to carefully read the advertizing and spec sheet info, AND THEN CALL the manufacturer for more detailed info if you can., you might be surprised but a lot of times asking for a transfer to the engineer department vs the sales guys is also a much better course of action when looking for confirmation on component use. info.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: harmonic balancer

Postby grumpyvette » April 24th, 2013, 2:54 pm

http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/c ... _absorber/

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OBVIOUSLY YOU NEED TO VERIFY THE ENGINES TRUE TOP DEAD CANT AND THE DAMPER AND TIMING MARKS ON THE DAMPER AGREE WITH REALITY
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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: harmonic balancer

Postby grumpyvette » October 30th, 2013, 4:24 pm

70novaguy wrote: I found this thread referred too on a different site, in reference to a problem with the dampers outer ring on a stock chevy low- performance 325 hp 396 oval port engine, the problem relates too,the big block damper coming loose and damaging the crank snout as it worked its way off eventually walking forward and damaging the radiator.
I looked over the crank and I wonder if its repairable?


the best advise I can supply , if you are fairly sure its damaged significantly is to look it over carefully and see if the threads holding the damper retaining bolt , the outer surface the damper hub slides onto and the key way slot are damaged and take several careful measurements with a decent quality micrometer.
measure carefully at at least 8 locations radially spaced about every 45 degrees around its circumference.
I know most guys will assume they can just buy a new replacement damper and install it, and you might get lucky and find that's all that's required, but generally there's a reason parts fail, it might simply be age (the engines most likely 40 plus years old) or the front crank seal leaked and oil damaged the rubber in the damper, but it might be indicating an out of balance issue that's slowly damaging bearings so check and inspect carefully.
If your concerned the obvious step would be to pull the crank and have a trusted machine shop inspect the crank and give you an appraisal, as to its continued use ,the cranks ability to be repaired , or should it be replaced,and of course you'll want a new damper to replace the defective one that failed. but that will obviously require a rebuild and total dis-assembly so you might want to consider swapping to a new or even a stroker crank and new pistons at some point especially if the block bores are worn.
If the engines got over 120K miles Id be seriously inclined to replace the bearings rings and gaskets, timing chain and gears, cam, lifters oil pump,rings etc and do a refresh/rebuild.
having a few cheap tools for checking might be helpful


http://www.harborfreight.com/3-piece-mi ... 66512.html

http://www.harborfreight.com/clamping-d ... 93051.html

you might want to read these threads

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=83

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=2165

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/cc ... to_01.html

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0 ... ewall.html

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/11 ... ewall.html

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=204

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=9320

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=8685

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=5478

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=2727

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=2726

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=4419
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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