BBC stock, high volume, high press, or both oil pump



BBC stock, high volume, high press, or both oil pump

Postby kenn » October 20th, 2009, 7:18 pm

I remember quite a lot of debate many years ago about the need to put in high volume or high pressure oil pumps. Has anyone came up with a good set of rules for when to use these and when not to? Does this debate still continue?

I will build a Gen VI block and understand they tried to improve the oil flow, something about priority mains? Many folks said the stock pump was all that was needed for a mildly hot engine.

I hope to put in the comp cams magnum roller rockers, and use roller cam with hydraullic lifters. I think I will try to get someone to use the beehive springs on new AFR heads. I am thinking the valve train should have reduced heat generation and thus less need for improved oil flow? I will put on the Milodon pan with the screen. I am thinking of trying the Eagle crank & rods with special finish that is supposed to reduce oil whirl. Everything else should be standard clearances.
use this oil pump(link below) in most stock SBC builds, as it produces a 10% increase in oil volume and standard pressure which is just fine , but obviously check your bearing clearances and oil pump to oil pan floor clearances and braze the CORRECT MATCHING pick-up to the pump, and I,d also suggest if you have the room, for clearance that you look into one of the less expensive 7 quart baffled oil pans as they provide a good deal more potential protection and durability to your bearings longevity. be very sure you verify the oil pump pick-up to oil pan floor clearance, and braze the pick-up to the pump body.
yes theres less expensive oil pumps that will work, but thats a good value, in a well made pump.

first choice
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-10552/overview/ SBC
or
http://www.jegs.com/i/Melling/689/10778C/10002/-1 BBC

second choice
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mil-18750/overview/ SBC
Does it make a difference in what oil viscosity you use vs the pump that is in the engine?

READ THIS LINK
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1800
watch video
http://www.melling.com/Aftermarket/Tech-Tip-Videos
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Re: BBC stock, high volume, high press, or both oil pump

Postby grumpyvette » October 21st, 2009, 9:34 am

read a few threads and the linked and sub linked info, on the site for detailed answers, but generally if your running a high volume oil pump youll want a 6-8 qt baffled oil pan, a windage screen and the mods to the oil system that make its use rather than the stock pump worth the effort, use the THINNEST viscosity synthetic oil that maintains a MINIMUM of 15-20 PSI at HOT IDLE speeds,

READ THIS LINK
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1800

the answer , to the question of if you need a high volume oil pump or not depends on several factors and the main ones are what are, your bearing clearances, what other mods to the oil system have you made, and how much oil pressure & flow volume will be required to maintain a minimum of about 15-20 psi of oil pressure at idle speed once the engines up to operational temperature and if you do use a high volume oil pump its only a COMPONENT in a system REQUIRING a high capacity baffled oil pan and a windage screen to insure efficient oil return to the sump, and a constant supply of oil over the oil pump pick-up even under hard acceleration or braking, remember without a constant film of reasonably cool, and clean pressurized oil, flowing over the bearings and valve train ,the bearings and valve train life expectancy drops off rapidly
BTW if you have a sudden drop in oil pressure on any engine with no other symptoms, you might want to replace the oil filter and check oil levels before you panic as its not uncommon for some brands of oil filters to fail internally

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keep in mind the sbc oil pump has 7 tooth gears and the big block pumps have 12 teeth making the oil flow smoother and less pulsed, plus having larger gears they tend to supply more oil at lower rpms
look closely and youll see the big block oil pump has a 5 bolt lower cover and the oil pump pick-up with its 3/4" feed seats into the main pump casting while the small block oil pump has a 4 bolt cover and the sbc oil pump pick-up with its 5/8" feed seats into the pumps cover plate

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read thru these sub linked threads for more MUCH MORE extensive info

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=615

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=52

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=525

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOiHdIXV ... r_embedded

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=150

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/pdf/Oil_Pumps_106.pdf

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=64

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

btw while were talking about oil pressure,in big block applications many guys don,t know that the 1965-early 1966 BBC engines REQUIRE, the rear bearing journal on the cam to be GROOVED or the oil will not flow correctly
If you get the correct cam bearings for the motor 65-66 blocks use Sh615S cam bearings and you must machine the rear cam journal . 3/16 wide by 7/64 deep You can tell 65-66 blocks by them not having a grove in the rear cam housing
396 clevite SH615S 65-66 only(grooved cams)
clevite SH616S 67-93 (non-grooved cams)
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1967-93 cam bearings don,t require the grooved bearing or grooved cam rear journal

http://books.google.com/books?id=HfbRYV ... al&f=false

it should be obvious that a performance BIG BLOCK CHEVY USUALLY REQUIRES a minimum of a 6-7 quart BAFFLED oil pan in most applications, if your expecting to maintain steady oil pressure under racing conditions

The G.M. part number for the filter adapter is 03853870, there is also by-pass valve (#25013759)



http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/20403/10002/-1

http://www.stefs.com/products/oilpans/c ... etsump.htm

http://www.milodon.com/oil-pans/road-race-oil-pans.asp

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categoryd ... code=11916

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categoryd ... code=10411

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any time you go to install new cam bearings in an engine you first take detailed notes and a few pictures of the OLD cam bearing in the block under good lighting to note the location of the oil feed holes and and grooves, then as they are removed you number them each as its removed and measure them as on many engine they are NOT INTERCHANGEABLE between all main cap locations

BTW, , on BIG BLOCKS the oil pumps and oil filter adapters are different due to the block oil filter recess and rear seals being different
GEN 4 or MARK IV
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GEN V and VI
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look at the picture below, the restrictive stock O.E.M. pickup if placed to close to the oil pan floor becomes a HUGE restriction to oil flow rates
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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: BBC stock, high volume, high press, or both oil pump

Postby grumpyvette » March 6th, 2010, 2:25 pm

"' hey grumpyvette?

Im running a short stroke hi-rpm motor. I turn the motor to 8,500 regularly, so I need upwards of 80-90 lbs of oil pressure. My oil pressure is around 40lbs at idle with a high volume oil pump, and less than 20 with a standard pump. I fear that the problem lies with a modification that my engine builder insisted on doing to the roller cam bearings.

He drilled a small hole in each cam bearing case and lined them up with the oil hole in the block where the normal bearing would line up. I really didn't want this to be done, since I knew that all benefits of the roller cam bearing could be negated due to the oil windage that the spinning oil would cause. But he stated that he "just didn't feel right unless those bearings were getting some oil". I fear that the modification caused my current oil pressure problem due to the design of roller cam bearing that allows pressure to escape between each needle.

Could I be wrong here, or does this indeed sound like the likely source of the problem?"




your current oil pressures are FINE your BUILDER WAS 100% correct in doing those mods and any oil pressure over 70 psi does NOTHING to improve your engines durability or longevity, in fact even as low as 55 psi at high rpms will more than supply the bearings needs, its NOT PRESSURE but FLOW VOLUME and OIL TEMPERATURE thats critical.
PRESSURE is the measure of resistance to flow in the blocks oil passages, its flow rates and reducing the bearing and valve train temps thats critical, if you don,t maintain a constant flow of oil in about the 200F-245F range (COOLER 200F-215F preferred, as it enters the bearings and valve train, where it absorbs and transfers that heat to the oil pan and oil cooler to be released to the air.
your high volume oil pump pumps about 25% on average, more flow volume thru the engine clearances resulting it the higher resistance to flow., as long as the pressure remains above roughly 10 psi per 1000rpms up to about 55 psi your bearings will remain in great condition, provided the clearances are close to or slightly larger than the factory specs
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: BBC stock, high volume, high press, or both oil pump

Postby grumpyvette » August 27th, 2010, 5:37 pm

Advantages, Myths and Fables of High Volume Oil Pumps


Most of stock automobile engines are designed to operate from idle to 4,500 rpm. The original volume and pressure oil pump will work fine in this type of application. As the demands on the engine increase so does the demands on the oiling system and pump.

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

The oil pump's most difficult task is to supply oil to the connecting rod bearing that is the farthest from the pump. To reach this bearing, the oil travels from three to four feet, turns numerous square corners through small holes in the crankshaft to the rod bearing. The rod bearing doesn't help matters. It is traveling in a circle which means centrifugal force is pulling the oil out of the bearing.

A 350 Chevy has a 3.481˝ stroke and a 2.111˝ rod journal. The outer edge of the journal travels 17.531˝ every revolution. At 1,000 rpm, the outer edge is traveling at 16.6 mph and 74.7 mph at 4,500 rpm. If we take this engine to 6,500 the outer edge is up to 107.9 and at 8,500 it is 141.1 mph. Now imagine driving a car around a curve at those speeds and you can feel the centrifugal force. Now imagine doing it around a circle with a 5.581˝ diameter.

The size of the gears or rotors determines the amount of oil a pump can move at any given rpm. Resistance to this movement creates the pressure. If a pump is not large enough to meet the demands of the engine, there will not be any pressure. Or if the demands of the engine are increased beyond the pumps capabilities there will be a loss of oil pressure. This is where high volume pumps come in; they take care of any increased demands of the engine.

Increases in the engine's oil requirements come from higher rpm, being able to rev faster, increased bearing clearances, remote oil cooler and/or filter and any combination of these. Most high volume pumps also have a increase In pressure to help get the oil out to the bearings faster.

That is what a high volume pump will do. Now let us consider what it will not do:

1. It will not replace a rebuild in a worn-out engine. It may increase pressure but the engine is still worn-out.

2. It will not pump the oil pan dry. Both solid and hydraulic lifters have metering valves to limit flow of the oil to the top of the engine. If a pan Is pumped dry, it is because the holes that drain oil back to the pan are plugged. If the high volume pump is also higher pressure, there will be a slight increase in flow to the top.

3. It will not wear out distributor gears. The load on the gear is directly related to the resistance to flow. Oil pressure is the measure of resistance to flow. The Ford 427 FE "side oiler" used a pump with relief valve set at 125 psi and it used a standard distributor gear. Distributor gear failures are usually caused by a worn gear on a new cam gear and/or worn bearings allowing misalignment.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2376&p=7633#p7633

posting.php?mode=edit&f=54&p=4597

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=525

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=2726



read thru these threads, above carefully


your symptom, tends to indicate a weak bye-pass spring, or a defective installation on the pump or pick-up,because normally oil volume increases with the rpms up to the point the bye-pass circuit starts releasing oil back to the feed side of the pump, regardless of engine clearances, and while the pressure may not rise rapidly the pressure is directly related to the pumps rpm,up to the point that the bye-pass circuit opens, but there IS a chance that the pick-up is mounted too close to the oil pan floor, if its less than 3/8" it can restrict oil flow into the oil pump, this can and frequently does cause pressure to drop off rapidly once the engine reaches the oil flow rate where the clearance becomes a restriction point in the engine oil flow due to its rpm.

replacing the pump and verifying the pick-up to pan floor clearance is usually the cure
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http://www.melling.com/Aftermarket/High ... Pumps.aspx

there are high pressure bye-pass circuit springs available

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-122171/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-122170/
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1. is it as simple as it looks ..can the pressure relief spring be swapped without removing the pump? and Im assuming theres no adjustment there just replace and tighten the nut/spring cap back down?

in most cases yes its ALMOST that simple, just remember to oil the piston and spring assembly, before they get re-installed and the LARGE END of the spring goes OUT facing the nut/plug NOT THE PISTON

2.Im going to check my pickup clearance i see i need a minimum of 3/8 of an inch ..is there a MAXIMUM i need to be weary of?

yes the minimum distance is 3/8" between the oil pump pick-up and the oil pan floor and the max is generally considered to be about 1/2"between the oil pump pick-up and the oil pan floor, you measure with a lump of clay on the pick-up lower surface being compressed with a temporary install of the oil pan
then measure the compressed clay, after removing the oil pan (see picture)

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http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Art-056001410 ... B002NZAOSS

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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: BBC stock, high volume, high press, or both oil pump

Postby grumpyvette » January 14th, 2011, 11:41 am

Oil Pumps: The Heart of the Engine


By Larry Carley

Larry Carley

The oil pump is literally the heart of an engine’s lubrication system. It sucks oil in from the crankcase and pushes it through the filter and oil galleries to the crankshaft and camshaft bearings. A constant supply of oil is needed to support and cool the bearings. If for any reason the pump cannot keep the oil circulating it’s the end of the road for the engine.

An oil pump failure is just as bad as cardiac arrest because the results are almost always fatal. Loss of oil pressure means loss of the protective oil film between the bearings and their journals. With no oil to keep the surfaces apart, the bearings wipe and fail.

A worn oil pump can’t deliver the same volume of oil as a pump with normal clearances. With less flow, there’s less oil pressure, less oil to maintain the oil film in the bearings and less cooling for the bearings. Under heavy load or at idle, there may not be enough oil flow to keep the bearings adequately lubed. The result is wiped bearings and engine failure.

Nothing Lasts Forever
A brand new oil pump is engineered to last the life of the engine, which on late model cars and light trucks is typically 150,000 miles or more. But like any other mechanical component the pump is subject to wear. In fact, the oil pump experiences more wear than most other engine parts because it is the only internal engine component that runs on unfiltered oil.

Think about it. The filter protects the bearings and other internal engine parts by trapping wear particles and debris that end up in the crankcase. But the filter provides no protection whatsoever for the pump because the filter is located after the pump. The oil pump just sucks up whatever is in the crankcase and pushes it along to the filter. The only protection for the pump is a screen at the end of the pickup tube. The screen can stop big chunks of debris but little else. Some pickups even have slits that allow cold oil to bypass the screen when the engine is first started, so if there’s any junk in the oil it will be sucked right into the pump.

Pump failure can occur if anything large enough to jam the gears or rotors enters the pump. This includes metallic debris from bearings or castings, gasket or seal debris, shot peening remnants, glass beads from bead blasting, or anything else that doesn’t belong in the crankcase. With twin-gear pumps, a foreign object that enters the pump can lodge between the close-fitting gears or the gears and housing causing the pump to lock up. Once the gears stop turning, something has to give. Usually the pump shaft twists or shears off. Sometimes a pump seizure tears up the teeth on the camshaft or distributor drive gears depending on how the pump is driven. With front mounted rotor style pumps, debris usually won’t lock up the pump because it is driven directly off the crankshaft, but it can damage or destroy the rotors.

Even if a pump doesn’t fail, it loses efficiency as it wears. Over time, the effects of pumping unfiltered oil takes a toll. Scratches and wear in the gears and pump housing increase clearances and reduce pumping efficiency. The result is a gradual loss of oil flow and oil pressure.

An oil pump, by the way, does not create oil pressure. It pushes oil from one place to another. It is a positive displacement pump that moves oil every time it turns. Oil is incompressible so once it leaves the pump it continues to flow until it encounters resistance in the filter, oil galleries and bearings. It’s the resistance to flow that builds pressure in the oil system. Trying to force oil through a small opening is going to create more resistance and pressure than allowing it to pass freely through a large opening.

A worn pump can’t deliver the same volume of oil as a new pump, so with less flow there’s a drop in oil pressure.

As pressure starts to back up in the oil system, it has to go somewhere. A spring-loaded "pressure relief valve" built in the oil pump (or next to the pump) opens when pressure exceeds a certain limit (typically 50 to 60 psi) and either reroutes oil back into the pump’s inlet or the oil pan. This prevents a dangerous buildup of pressure that could rupture the oil filter or blow out press-fit oil plugs.

At idle, most oil pumps do not produce enough flow to force open the relief valve. Oil pumps that are camshaft driven only turn at half engine speed so output isn’t great at idle and low rpm. Even pumps that are crankshaft driven and turn at engine speed (or double engine speed in a few instances) don’t pump enough oil to overcome the relief valve spring. The relief valve generally only comes into play at higher rpms when the pump’s output pushes more oil into the system than it can handle. Then the relief valve opens to vent oil and limit maximum oil pressure until engine returns to idle or a lower rpm.

Vehicle manufacturers have traditionally recommended a minimum of 10 psi of oil pressure for every 1,000 rpm of engine speed. Using these numbers, most stock engines don’t need any more than 50 to 60 psi of oil pressure. With tighter bearing clearances, pressure goes up requiring less flow from the pump and less parasitic horsepower loss to drive the oil pump.

In racing applications, the old school of thought was more oil pressure was needed to keep the engine lubed. That’s true if bearing clearances are loosened up. But most engine builders today tighten clearances so less oil flow is needed to maintain adequate oil pressure. This approach increases the horsepower output because less power is needed to drive the pump at high rpm.

According to various sources, a stock oil pump is usually more than adequate for modified stock block performance engines. NASCAR engines typically get by just fine with no more than 50 psi of oil pressure at 9,000 rpm! Some top fuel dragster and funny car engines are set up so the oil pump will dump excessive oil pressure at high rpm so more power will be routed to the rear wheels.

High Volume/Pressure
In applications where more oil flow is desired either to increase oil flow and pressure for better bearing lubrication and cooling, an oil pump with longer or larger gears may be installed. The physically larger surface area of the gears pushes more oil through the pump at the same rpm as a stock pump. A high volume oil pump typically flows 20 to 25 percent more oil than a stock pump. The increase in oil flow produces an increase oil pressure at idle, which helps compensate for increased bearing clearances. Consequently, some people may install a high volume pump in a high mileage engine in an attempt to restore normal oil pressure. But oil isn’t metal, and the only real cure for low oil pressure is to replace worn bearings and restore normal clearances.

High pressure oil pumps are another option. A high pressure pump contains a stiffer relief valve spring that does not open until a higher pressure is reached (75 psi or higher). The actual flow rate of a high pressure pump may be no different than a stock pump, or it may be higher if longer gears are used. Either way, the pump will increase the system oil pressure reading at high rpm when the pump is working hard, but it won’t have any effect on idle pressure when the pump is turning slowly.

A high volume or high pressure oil pump may be recommended in engines where bearing clearances are looser than normal, in engines where an auxiliary external oil cooler has been added to improve oil cooling, and in racing engines where a oil accumulator has been installed.

Rebuild or Replace?
When a high mileage engine is being remanufactured, you have the option of rebuilding or replacing the oil pump. No engine builder in their right mind is going to risk a warranty return by reusing a worn pump in a rebuilt engine, so most simply replace the pump. According to Melling Engine Parts, a major supplier of oil pumps and repair kits, most engine builders today replace pumps rather than rebuild them because installing a new pump is quicker, easier and less risky.

Replacing the gears in a twin-gear pump can restore gear-to-gear clearances but not gear-to-housing clearances. The end plate that covers the pump often develops a heavy wear pattern that is most noticeable on the outlet gear side. Regrinding the face of the plate smooth can restore end play tolerances between the plate and gears but it can’t compensate for wear in the housing. Deep scratches or grooves worn into the sides of the housing will leak oil and reduce the pump’s ability to move oil.

In the case of front cover oil pumps on overhead cam engines, the pump turns at engine rpm and generates more flow at idle than crankcase mounted pumps. Consequently, when the pump becomes worn it isn’t always necessary to replace the entire cover assembly – provided the pump housing inside the cover isn’t worn or damaged. A new drive gear can be mounted on the crankshaft and a new rotor installed in the cover to restore normal oil pressure. This approach can usually save you 50 percent or more over replacing the entire cover assembly.

In cases where an engine has experienced a bearing failure or any other kind of internal failure that puts debris into the crankcase, the oil pump should always be replaced.

Another item that should always be replaced (but often isn’t) is the pickup tube and screen. Pickups are difficult to clean and can hide debris that may damage a new pump or the the engine.

Pump Modifications
Performance engine builders will often rework the inlet and outlet ports of a stock oil pump housing to eliminate sharp edges that restrict oil flow. Using a die grinder to smooth and blend the sharp edges of the ports will enhance flow in and out of the pump. The clearance between the end of the gears and the pump housing cover should also be minimized to reduce pumping losses.

Some engine builders also install big block Chevy oil pumps on small block Chevy engines to increase oil flow. A stock big block Chevy oil pump has 12 teeth per gear versus 7 for the small block version, and flows about 10 percent more oil at the same rpm.

Something else to watch out for when installing a high volume oil pump in a small block Chevy V8 is the nylon retainer on the pump shaft. A better choice would be a pinned steel retainer to provide extra support between the intermediate shaft and pump shaft.

Care must also be used when tightening down the pump mounting bolts on small block and big block Chevy V8s because the pumps do not use a mounting gasket. The bolts should be torqued to 60-70 ft. lbs. so there are no leaks or sloppiness that would eventually cause the shaft to break.

Reducing Warranty Issues
The greatest oil pump in the world won’t keep an engine properly lubed if it is dry when the engine is first started, or it if sucks air because the oil level in the crankcase is low or the pickup screen is mounted too far above the floor of the oil pan.

The pickup tube should be installed so it is located no less than 3/8˝ above the floor of the oil pan (to allow good intake flow), and no more than 1/2˝ above the floor so it doesn’t run out of oil in a sharp turn.

The pump should also be filled with oil when it is mounted on the block to prime it and reduce the risk of a dry start. Do not use grease or assembly lube here. In the case of front mounted oil pumps inside the timing cover, the pump rotors can be coated with heavy oil such as 50W or even gear oil to keep the pump primed.

You should also attach a yellow or red tag on the engine warning the installer to prime the oil system with a pressurized oiler before cranking or attempting to start the engine. Oil tends to drain off bearing surfaces when an engine sits for more than a week or so without running. So if an engine has been sitting in a warehouse for a month or more before it is installed in a vehicle, you can bet the bearings are going to be dry unless they were precoated with a long-lived assembly lube.

On older engines with distributor driven oil pumps, the engine can be primed by using a drill to spin the oil pump shaft through the distributor hole. But on engines with no distributor or those with oil pumps inside the front cover, this isn’t possible. Feeding pressurized oil into the main oil gallery through the oil pressure sending unit fitting will route oil to all the critical areas inside the engine and eliminate the risk of scuffing the bearings when it is first started.

New Oil Pump Program
Vern Schumann of Schumann’s Sales & Service in Blue Grass, IA, said his company is launching a brand new oil pump program that will be sold under the Manley brand name. The new line will eventually include twelve of the most popular oil pumps, starting with four pumps in February. "Our goal is to create a quality program that will grow at its own rate, probably one pump a month," said Schumann.

"Our first applications will be for small block Chevy V8s and short deck 289/302 Windsor Ford V8s. The numbers are 55, 55HV (high volume), 55HV Racing, and 68."

Schumann said one of the advantages of launching an entirely new pump program from scratch is that he is not locked into any existing designs. Consequently, gear tolerances and relief pressures can be optimized for the aftermarket.

"Our 55 pump, for example, will have a kick out pressure of 60 psi, which is on the high end of the specifications. When engines are rebuilt, customers never complain about too much oil pressure. They typically complain about too little oil pressure. On small block Chevys with hot thin oil in the crankcase and a 200 degree thermostat, it’s common to see only about 10 to 15 psi of oil pressure at idle on the oil pressure gauge – which is not very reassuring. So we’re minimizing clearances to reduce pumping losses and to maximize oil flow at idle.

"Another problem with most relief valves is that the side of the valve as well as the end is exposed to oil pressure. This produces a sideways thrust that can cause the valve to hang up halfway in the bore. Our relief valves are redesigned so pressure is only applied to the end of the valve."

Schumann said improving machining accuracy and reducing tooth-to-tooth tolerances and gear-to-housing tolerances maximizes oil pressure at idle. "Something else you have to watch is the finish on the pedestal pads because this affects the end play of the pump gears. You don’t want any chatter marks on the pads because it will increase end play and cause a loss of pressure. Our pumps have .002˝ of end play and will stay that way because there are no chatter marks to wear away."

As for pricing, Schumann said his pumps will be competitively priced somewhere between the old DynaGear prices and those of the other major aftermarket suppliers.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: BBC stock, high volume, high press, or both oil pump

Postby grumpyvette » May 24th, 2011, 12:13 pm

if your asking if the stock 5 quart oil pan many late 60-70sbig block chevelles and camaros came with from the factory will bolt back on after you've installed a 4.25" stroker assembly , the answers yes, but its a bit like a SBC 383 build in that your going to need to occasionally give the stock oil pan rails on the oil pan a good whack with a ball peen hammer to get a bit more clearance and verify it clears, and the stock oil pan is far from ideal.especially if your adding a windage tray and mount studs

If your going to build a 489-540 stroker in a BIG BLOCK ENGINE your main problem is OIL CONTROL, and LACK of enough oil capacity to provide IDEAL lubrication under hard braking and acceleration
you can either buy or fabricate a better oil pan, and having an effective windage screen, crank scraper and at least a baffled oil pan with a 7-8 quart capacity will aid you in providing un-interrupted oil pressure.
your average BBC oil pump sticks down to a smidge over 7" deep from the pan rails so depending on the pump used youll rarely be able to use less than a 7.25" -7.5" deep sump depth, so added capacity will be gained in a sump extending a bit farther forward and to the sides but the K-frame, suspension,oil filter and headers limit those sump expansion options. you can add an oil accumulator, and oil cooler, to gain oil capacity.
one more in an endless list of reasons that owning a welder and having learned a few sheet metal fabrication skills is a huge asset in this sport/hobby.
most of us are not rich, and while its easy to spend money and it takes time and effort and some skill to fabricate theres also a good deal of satisfaction in knowing you have built custom components for your car that meet or exceed most of whats out there available to purchase.
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now youll need a few tools and this is one area a 110 volt mig may be a good choice, but ID prefer TIG
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=65

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viewtopic.php?f=60&t=4232

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1594

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http://www.welders-direct.com/merchant2 ... ode=907335
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: BBC stock, high volume, high press, or both oil pump

Postby grumpyvette » May 27th, 2011, 2:51 pm

540RAT posted this info
Sucking the pan dry IS JUST AN OLD WIVES TALE. An oil pump can only pump as much oil out of the pan, as the motor will bleed off through all its clearances. Beyond that, the oil pump reaches bypass pressure and simply returns any excess oil to the pumps intake side, so it is not sucking that amount of oil out of the pan. Therefore, its leaving a larger volume of oil in the pan. Or else the oil pressure relief valve releases the excess oil back into the pan. And if for some reason the bypass isn't large enough, then the pressure would HAVE TO GO UP.

Once an oil pump reaches bypass pressure, it makes no difference whether the pump is std volume or high volume, it won't drain oil from the pan any quicker. Pressure is pressure, no matter how it is generated. So, if a std volume pump can't pump the pan dry, then neither can a high volume pump at the same pressure.

In order to suck the pan dry, youd have to have â insufficient drain-back. Blaming the pump, would be misidentifying the problem. Sure the pump gets the oil up to the top, but its drain-back that gets it back to the pan. So, just be sure that you have plenty of drain-back capacity and it would be impossible to pump the pan dry.

While dyno testing my 540ci BBC with .003 clearance on the rods and mains, using 5W30 synthetic oil, and using a Titan â high volume gerotor oil pump, it maintained a rock steady 80 psi (the preset relief valve setting) from about 5,000 rpm on up, with no pressure drop AT ALL. So, there was no sign of aerated oil. Now, with a pump that big, generating that much oil pressure, and using oil that thin, if an engine was ever going to pump the pan dry, that should have been it, right?

But it never happened, and it maintained oil pressure better than most I've seen. The thinner oil will also drain back better, but it will have also passed more oil through the engine, providing better flow/lubrication and cooling. One thing I did do during the build, was I enlarged the drain-back holes in my AFR heads, to double their original area. Was that enough to keep me from pumping the pan dry, due to better drain-back? Maybe, but if that's all it took, then keeping the pan full of oil is not Rocket Science.
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"When it comes to discussing/debating the topic of std volume oil pumps vs high volume oil pumps, we need something more than just opinion and speculation. We need some actual real world data. So, consider the following:

About a year and a half ago, Car Craft Magazine used a 372ci SBC to do an oil pump volume comparison test. So, we can look at that actual data to see how things stack up. Here are the results using conventional petroleum 30 wt for each test:

Oil Pump...........Peak HP..............Ave. HP...........Ave. press.

Std volume/std pressure..............485¦.392...............50 psi

High volume/High pressure...........481.¦.390..............66 psi

High volume/std pressure.............477.387................64 psi

As you can see, surprisingly the std pressure version of the high volume pump made the worst HP of these three small block pumps. It was down 8hp or down 1.6% for peak HP, and down 5hp or down 1.3% for Ave HP. It also provided a 14 psi increase in ave pressure, or a 28% increase in ave pressure.

But the High volume/high pressure pump was down only 4hp or down .8% for peak HP, and down only 2hp or down only .5% for Ave HP. This one provided a 16 psi increase in ave pressure, or a 32% increase in ave pressure.

Of course the most important number is the â average  HP loss, NOT the peak HP loss. Because peak is only a single data point, while average is across the whole rpm range being used.

Only the most hardcore racer could ever notice a 2hp or .5% HP loss, using the high volume/high pressure pump. So, using that pump does NOT cause a significant loss in performance. And the higher volume pump will provide better low rpm oil pressure, and allow for switching to the much better thinner full synthetic oils that are available. More on that below:


And in the same article, Car Craft also tested different oil viscosities using the High volume/std pressure oil pump. Here are those results:

Oil.....................Peak HP.Ave. HP.......Ave. press.....Ave. Flow in GPM

0W10 syn................480.....387..................56.....................7.4

5W20 syn................479......386..................59.....................7.2

20W50 syn..............477.......387.................67...................6.5

30W conventional...475.......384..................67....................6 .1


The 0W10 is probably thinner than all but the hardest of hardcore racers would care to use. And 20W50 is thickish and somewhat similar to the straight 30W.

But 30W conventional petroleum oil was used for the oil pump volume test at the top, so lets use that as the main reference here for viscosity comparisons. And that leaves the more reasonable 5W20 synthetic for a quick viscosity comparison.

The 5W20 made 4hp more peak HP or about .8% more peak HP than the 30W. It also made 2hp more ave HP, or .5% more Ave HP than the 30W. So, HP increases with the thinner oil is not significant here, but it does offset the slight loss of hp from going to a high volume pump in the first place. The thinner 5W20 also drops a little oil pressure, but its still quite reasonable.

So, a larger volume oil pump loses a tad bit of HP and increases the oil pressure, but the thinner synthetic oil gains a tad bit of HP and decreases the oil pressure. In the end, its all pretty much a wash. So then whats the point of making these changes at all?

To answer that, we need to look at the average flow in GPM (gallons per minute). The 5W20 flows a whopping 18% more than the straight 30W. So whats the value in that you ask?

Well, many folks think that pressure = lubrication, but that is simply not the case. Pressure is only a measurement of resistance to flow. FLOW is the only thing that lubricates, and you get more flow with thinner oil as we just saw above. Lubrication is what is used to separate moving parts, and keep them from touching.

And increased flow also has another very important advantage. An engine's vital internal components are all DIRECTLY OIL COOLED, but only IN dircetly water cooled. And thinner oil will flow more freely, carrying away more heat, thus providing better cooling for those vital internal components. And of course that extra cooling is even more important in high performance engines.

So, going to the trouble of achieving almost an extra 20% in flow, is well worth the effort. If someone asks why use a high volume pump, the answer is so that you can maintain reasonable oil pressure with thinner oil. And with thinner oil, you can improve both lubrication and cooling. So, its all good.

NOTE: To best see those oil temp changes and cooling improvements, you really need to observe that in a running car on the road or on the track. Because trying to observe this during brief dyno pulls, will likely result in you not getting a worthwhile picture of the true potential.

So, here are some comparison numbers for you from an 830 HP road race engine, on the track:

15W50 oil = 80 psi = 265* oil temp

5W20 oil = 65 psi = 240* oil temp


Here you can see how the thicker oil flowed more slowly through the bearings, thus getting hotter and driving up bearing temps. If an engine is running hot, use a thinner oil to increase flow and increase cooling. And running a high volume oil pump allows you to do that."





keep in mind this was on a very high average RPM range engine combo,selected to MAXIMIZE any differences that the oil pump characteristic might effect, on a lower rpm engine the differences would be significantly lower on hp loss at higher rpms
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: BBC stock, high volume, high press, or both oil pump

Postby grumpyvette » May 28th, 2011, 2:01 pm


WOLFPLACE POSTED THIS


These debates crack me up,,,,
Do any of the "pump the pan dry crowd" ever stop & give some thought to how an oil system works?

When does a hi volume pump deliver more oil assuming all clearances (leaks) are unchanged & you are at saturation with a stock pump?
Once you are at saturation or on the relief assuming the relief passage is
adequate,,,
What controls the oil flow?
The pump?
Or the leaks in the system?

If the leaks do not change how does a hi volume pump pass more oil except through the relief system?
If the pressure stays the same say 70lbs at the gauge at max
Which pump is using more HP to drive?
Said another way,,
Does it take more HP to push unneeded oil through the relief at the same delivery pressure?
I don't think so

Is a hi volume pump necessary in most cases?
No it is not
Will it hurt anything?
In most cases no it will not

If low pressure at less than relief setpoint makes you nervous
The hi volume pump is for you

The only time you are going to start with less oil in the pan is at any point below the relief pressure simply because below this the hi volume pump will in fact pass more oil through all the leaks
Why?>> well because at this point the standard pump has not reached it's full potential as shown by a lower pressure.
If the leaks are not the bearings but the upper end supply then the pan will indeed start life at a lower level under these circumstances
This could potentially cause an issue if you do not have good returns.

Bottom line
I use a hi volume pump in many engines not because they are necessary but because many people just do not realize you don't need 100lbs of pressure at 2000 RPM,,, you are usually fine with 20lbs
But it looks nasty on a 100lb gauge so,,,, we have the hi volume band-aid applied & everyone is happy

There are exceptions notably roller lifters. I don't like low oil pressure with them it tells me there is a good chance you could be starving them of needed volume & flow.
Here a hi volume pump is a good thing in a street or endurance application where you have to run the engine at lower RPM.

Remember the pressure you see on a gauge is nothing but the resistance to flow or delivery pressure
It has little to do with protecting your bearings or much else for that matter except as noted above

That's my 3.5 cents for today
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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