Oil pump pick-up question



Oil pump pick-up question

Postby bvlahov » November 7th, 2009, 7:47 am

I've bought a Canton RR oil pan (part nr. 15-240M) for my vette but I received a pick-up
for high voulme oil pump with it.
I think that I'll stick with stock oil pump for now, so my question is, can I use stock pump and
stock pick-up with this pan?
I know that pickup height from the bottom is most important, but I'm asking this question because
stock pickup is round style and the one that I received with the pan is square and looks completely
different.

Or do you think that buying a new melling m-select 10550 HV oil pump would be a good idea?

I've read through a lot of web pages and opinions vary. Some say that HV pump will heat up the oil,
cause foaming, even oil starvation, and most important that it will kill distributor or cam gears prematurely.

Before my rebuild, I had good oil pressures, but when fully heated, it would go as low as ~10 PSI at idle (900 rpm).
I'm affraid that after rebuild, and I'll be using stock crank that will be only polished and std/std bearings, my pressure
could be a bit lower (due to a little more clearances from polishing).

What would be your choice?

My engine will be street/road race driven and I like to drive it hard, so engine sees a lot of abusing.
It should be arround 400 crank HP and 6500 rpm red line.
Engine combo is:
- stock crank - polished
- std/std bearings
- forged SCAT rods
- forged SRP pistons
- Canton 15-240M oil pan
- ??? oil pump
- LS style hyd. roller lifters
- 1.6 RR's, pro-magnums
- CC's XR288HR cam 236/242 @.050"
- #113 heads ported, 2.02/1.60 valves
- ported superram
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Re: Oil pump pick-up question

Postby bvlahov » November 7th, 2009, 8:07 am

Also, if I'll go with HV pump, is this the mod that has to be done to improve oiling
to distributor gear?

since I just got an E-MAIL about what mods are necessary or at least a good idea when running a high volume oil pump, and concern over possible extra gear wear caused by the slightly and I do mean slightly increased pressure on the gears, guys Im getting the idea here that most of you are not aware that your normally suppose to cut a .060 wide x .005-9 deep groove in the lower band on the distributor housing so that extra oil sprays constantly on the contact point between the cam and distributor gears and that a ARP style drive shaft with a steel collar to hold the drive shaft alignment on true center is mandatory for long high rpm use. look at this picture:


Image
watch this video
http://www.melling.com/Info/TechTipVideos.aspx
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Re: Oil pump pick-up question

Postby grumpyvette » November 7th, 2009, 9:37 am

if the oil pump pick-up that came with your oil pan will mount to your oil pump it should be used, if its the 3/4" tube and yours requires a 5/8" tube . obviously youll need to use a different pick up, Id suggest you call canton , they will know the correct part number and possibility even swap it out, for the one you got sent.
the round pick-up may work ok but its likely to inter-fear with the pans baffles hence the smaller square design,
look at the picture below, the restrictive stock O.E.M. pickup if placed to close to the oil pan floor becomes a HUGE restriction to oil flow rates
Image
the aftermarket drive shafts are held to a much higher strength tolerance, and a steel collar and and the reduced mid section are both good features, for the very low price Id strongly suggest pitching the stock drive shaft in the dumpster
be sure you select the correct oil pump drive shaft
SB - is a bit shorter about 5.75"
BB - is a bit longer about - 6.50" or so
there should be about .050 vertical movement, of the oil pump, oil pump drive shaft between the oil pump and lower distributor gear with the manifold and distributor seated correctly

"I've read through a lot of web pages and opinions vary. Some say that HV pump will heat up the oil,
cause foaming, even oil starvation, and most important that it will kill distributor or cam gears prematurely."
The melling oil pump 10552 is a 10% more volume not pressure
It comes with two springs
If you use it with the "plain" spring it will be about 60lbs & the pink one is about 70lbs
this pump is a good choice for the vast majority of SBC engines

HV pump will heat up the oil,
- 95% B.S., SMOKEY YUNICK PROVED THIS TO BE A MYTH WITH TESTING FROM G.M.
cause foaming, 100% B.S., THE OIL THAT RECYCLES THUR THE PUMP < ON THE BYE-PASS CIRCUIT, AND DOES NOT EXIT BACK TO THE OIL PAN IN A CHEVY
even oil starvation, with the matched oil pan and the proper dimensions 100% B.S., oil acts like your timing chain in that its mostly cycling from the crankcase to the level of the cam and lifters, and most of the oil that does reach the upper engine drains back quickly




there no reason to not use the high volume pump with the high volume baffled oil pan, the reasons are simple enough, a high volume pump is very similar to a standard pump in design, its just got impeller gears that are 10% or 20% longer so the pump, can be looked at as either pumping 10%-20% more oil at a given rpm OR it pumps the same oil volume at a 10%-20% lower rpm.
PRESSURE is a MEASURE of the resistance to flow, and that flow resistance is the result of the bearing clearances, and mods done to the lubrication system to increase oil flow rates.
Ive never seen a properly installed high volume oil pump and pick-up installed in a high capacity baffled oil pan, with a windage screen that directs oil back to the sump efficiently cause a problem, the problems that are frequently blamed on the high volume oil pumps are usually the result of improper clearances, failure to use a matching oil pan, or restricted oil drain back controls .
ON FACT many guys ignore is that you can increase the gauge pressure reading with thicker viscosity oil, and you can decrease the gauge pressure reading with thinner viscosity oil,mods that increase the oil flow rates like drilling the front oil passage plug or grooving the lifter bores or distributor lower band will reduce the gauge pressure reading, and the resistance the pump places on the cam gear driving it,
YOULL GAIN FAR MORE INFO READING THE LINKS AND SUB LINKS

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1800

http://www.melling.com/Info/TechTipVideos.aspx

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/cc ... index.html

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=52

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=150

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=64

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1837

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3536&p=9372#p9372

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=615

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1334
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: Oil pump pick-up question

Postby Dustytrix » March 2nd, 2010, 10:39 pm

Grumpy , I installed my pickup tube on the oil pump to get the measurement for oil pan clearance. I used a 1/2" thick nut and used one of the magnets (that you advised for oil galley) to hold the nut in place on bottom of the pickup tube. It worked great the magnet fit inside the nut and it was not going to move I pushed the pan on 4 times and got the same measurement on all 4.
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Re: Oil pump pick-up question

Postby grumpyvette » March 3rd, 2010, 9:01 am

great!
now BRAZE the pick-up tube to the pump,at the correct clearance from the oil pan floor,(after temporarily removing the bye-pass spring to prevent its getting annealed) because engine vibrations WILL FREQUENTLY over time in most cases cause the pump pick-up to move, if its only press fit,and if you operate the engine at higher rpm levels ,if you don,t braze the pick-up.

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1948&p=5176&hilit=braze#p5176

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=2194&p=5905&hilit=braze#p5905

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4306&p=11353#p11353

brazing the oil pump pick-up tube to the pump body after carefully checking clearances will usually prevent the oil pump pick-up from vibrating loose over time
BRAZING the pick-up to the pump is a good idea but remember to remove the pressure regulator valve, and its spring first, and allowing the lower pump body to slowly air cool, not drop it into water to cool or it may warp,and remember to oil the bye-pass circuit components before installing them, remember failing to do so, you can warp the bye-pass circuit piston, which may cause it to bind in its bore making the oil pump bye-pass not function,(resulting in pressures raising into the 80psi-90psi plus ranges) or you could anneal the springs temper causing the bye-pass circuit to open at a lower pressure,(like 45psi-50psi) than its designed too (60psi-65psi) limiting your peak oil pressure and oil and replace it after the pumps cooled


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Ive always preferred stainless socket head cap screws, on the bolt on oil pump pick-ups with external bolts bottom plate bolts drilled for safety wire, or using LOCTITE on the threads
bolt on oil pump pick-ups are subject to a lot of vibration so you safety wire the bolts, and us LOCTITE on the threads, and a brace bolted or welded to the pick-up won,t hurt

Image

external locations need safety wire
http://www.whizwheels.com/Tips/safetywiring.html

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http://www.jegs.com/p/Milodon/Milodon-P ... 5/10002/-1

Image

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http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=45341

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http://www.fastenersuperstore.com/store ... tage=step3

youll find these very helpful

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... word=allen

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=96645

Image
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1800&p=4597#p4597

it may be hard to believe but your oil pump pick-up if unsupported vibrates and tends to work loose, so brazing it in place and use of a support strap tends to help, but its not a 100% cure, install the pick-up wrong or use the wrong support and they can still occasionally break
Image

http://www.aa1car.com/library/us1097.htm

http://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manua ... tm#oil-low
pick-ups like this one below are less likely to break due to better support, but if not properly installed can still fail


there are high pressure bye-pass circuit springs available

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-122171/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-122170/
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http://www.melling.com/Aftermarket/High ... Pumps.aspx

in 40 plus years of building engines IVE NEVER seen a PROPERLY brazed and braced oil pump pick-up come loose, just remember to remove the spring and piston from the pressure regulating bye-pass and let the parts slowly air cool before lubricating and re-assembling the components.

Image
BRAZE ROD MELTS at well OVER 800F and done correctly has a tensile strength of 50,000 PLUS psi when used, on clean metal surfaces

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazing

http://www.weldguru.com/braze-cast-iron.html
Image

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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: Oil pump pick-up question

Postby grumpyvette » May 9th, 2010, 9:37 am

hey GRUMPYVETTE????
, I have a NEW BUILT 406 in a stock car (MONTE) and oil pressure is connected at block by dist. when at idle it reads 26lbs but at throttle it goes down to zero..7 quart pan with 20 50 oil and have gone thru two gauges...any help? can i relocate my pressure to oil filter?


wait, stop right there

!

don,t assume the gauge or the sensors defective!

that is a very common SYMPTOM, or INDICATION, of a fairly common problem, thats usually the result of the oil pump pick-up being mounted too close to the oil pan floor, at low rpms, theres just enough flow to maintain oil pressure but as the engine rpms increase your flow into the pump quickly becomes restricted and oil pressure drops to zip, but returns when the rpms fall.
allowing this condition to continue will result in bearing damage

Image
you must verify theres a MINIMUM or 3/8" under the oil pump pick-up to pan floor.

this is especially common if you've installed a high volume oil pump, because the pumps longer and the oil pump pick-ups moved about 3/8"-1/2" closer to the oil pan floor , this results in that restriction to flow with some pick-up screens if you don,t verify the clearance, or if the pick-up moves due to vibration if you fail to braze it to the pump, this is the source of the MYTH that high volume oil pumps pump the pan dry, when in fact theres plenty of oil in the pan, its just not accessible due to clearance/flow restriction issues
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: Oil pump pick-up question

Postby grumpyvette » July 26th, 2010, 9:54 am

pick-up quality , and screen strength varies wildly, the more substantial screen designs are less likely to fail
and the pickups with bracing straps, and bolt on mounts tend to stand up to vibration far longer
perforated metal screen rarely fails and brazing the pickup tube to the pump body after careful measurements are taken,and temporarily removing the bye-pass spring is advised,and welding cast iron to mild steel is difficult, or darn near impossible at times, so braze the connection

Image
a reasonably short and well supported design like this is almost ideal mounted to a matching 7-9 quart , baffled oil pan with a windage screen, thats designed to quickly return oil to the sump

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use of a fairly long and un-supported design like these three above, that's simply been press fit into the pump without brazing or supports added, is almost a guarantee of eventual problems on a high performance application
first Id point out that a simple spot/TACK welding if done with a typical arc welder leaves a brittle weld in some cases, and that BRAZING the complete joint is the PREFERRED method of locking the pick-up tube to the pump body
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next, Id suggest a TIG or MIG weld but brazing is a bit more flexible
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brittle welds cause problems, the oil pump pick-up tends to vibrate at some engine speeds and over time it will weaken the joint if thats not braced or supported with a second support point, welding or brazing a brace and bolting it on the pump body helps, but a brazed connection tends to be a bit more flexible. many guys seat the tube with a hammer and flat screw driver blade against the rib on the pick-up tube shoulder with the result that it caused stress risers and the pick-up fails eventually, even if
fully supported but fully supported
bolt on pick-up designs are less likely to fail
Image
adding a brace and brazing it to the pick-up tube and use loc-tite on the bolt threads helps durability
Image
Image
Image
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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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