Oil spits out the filter



Oil spits out the filter

Postby ChrisMo » August 20th, 2010, 8:08 pm

Hi,

I have a weird problem. I just rebuilt the small block Chevy in my Camaro. When I prime the pump or crank the engine over, oil pressure is fine but the minute I start the engine, ALL the oil starts spewing out at the filters base???? What did I do wrong or what might be causing this??? I've changed filters, I tried "over tightening" the filter, I've checked the bypass relief valve and it's functionning OK. The engine has a mild cam and was bored 0.030" over and it has an aftermarket oil pump. Any Help would be appreciated!!!

Thanks!
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Re: Oil spits out the filter

Postby grumpyvette » August 20th, 2010, 9:46 pm

look over this link carefully, and look over the diagrams

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=52

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3084&p=8317&hilit=+seal+thick+pan#p8317

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=206&p=390&hilit=+seal+thick+pan#p390

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3536&p=9372#p9372

pictures would be great,for diagnosing any problem,
but lets look at the basics we know the oil pump works, because, your getting oil flow, we know its reaching the filter boss, because it leaks at that location so the obvious area to look is the adapter your using or the filter seal ring, where it seals to the oil filter recess, in the block (lower right corner) in this picture.
the adapter seats in the recess, the oil filter , screws onto the adapter ,the oil filter seal ring seats on the block machined surface, completing the seal
the oil pump has a bye-pass circuit that should limit the oil pressure to about 65- 70 psi if its functioning correctly.
if the adapters cracked or warped or theres TWO sealing rings, or NO SEALING RINGS or the wrong diameter seal ring on the oil filter, its sure to leak, if the main cap or rear main seal, or oil pan gaskets not correctly installed its going to leak, if you failed to install a plug, or the correct sensor in the block where the oil pressure or oil temp sensors go its going to leak

Image
Image
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if the rear cam tunnel freeze plug or oil gallery plugs loose it leaks oil
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Oil spits out the filter

Postby ChrisMo » August 20th, 2010, 11:22 pm

Hi,

First off, thanks for your reply!!!!

I noticed while online tonight that Summit Racing offers 2 different adapters ... one comes with a gasket and the other without. When I removed the adapter (to make sure the pressure relief valve was working) I noticed it didn't have a gasket ..... however, since the filter seals against the block (as you've mentioned) I doubt that would make a difference right?!?!

I've installed the three threaded plugs at the rear of the plug (main oil galleries). what are the locations of the other plugs, if any?!?! (the 3 front plugs had not been removed)

I haven't checked the adapter for warp though so that'll be my next option.

Also, I noticed that the oil filters I used had almost 1/8" between the filter and the "sidewall" of the recess (filter seems a little small to me?!?!). I used the filters listed per application and they were both the same size. Were there any changes ever made to the dimension of SBCs oil filter pads??? (Is there a particular filter you'd recommend)

I have already removed the tranny and the rear main gallery plugs and cleaned out the galleries with a brush to make sure that no blockage might be causing pressure surges and that didn't solve the problem (...and the bloc was hot tanked before assembly).

THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP!!!!
ChrisMo

 
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Re: Oil spits out the filter

Postby grumpyvette » August 21st, 2010, 8:08 am

it sounds like youve simply got the wrong filter
use an AC DELCO pf454 filter or STP S8873 or wix 51069
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Oil spits out the filter

Postby ChrisMo » August 21st, 2010, 6:56 pm

OK so here's an update.

I went to Walmart this morning and checked out all the filters you mentioned (well at least the ones they had) and they are all the same as the FRAM PH30 I was using. Then I found FRAM HPK1 which is an adapter kit that replaces the stock filter adapter and allows you to use the bigger FRAM PH1 or PH8A. So I bought that, came home, installed it and as soon as the engine fired up, the seal on that PH8A "walked out" and oil spewed everywhere again!!!

Can there be such a thing as too much oil pressure???? If so, what could cause it??? (....and what would cure it???)

The main bearings have between 0.0015 and 0.002 clearance and the cam spun freely even installed dry .... the cam bearings are new because they had to be replaced for hot tanking the bloc. I installed the plug behind the cam (?!?!?!?)

In the picture below (oil pass 1) is the path of the oil correct (red arrows) and if so, does the pass indicated by the green arrow lead right under the oil pressure sender or is there a "detour" past the main gallery holes??? As I've mentioned before, I've already ran a brush through the main galleries to make sure there was no blockage there, now my only option would be removing the plug on the side of the bloc over the filter pad (blue arrow) and the oil pressure sender and run the brush through there to see if there would be any blockage between the filter and the main gallery.
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Re: Oil spits out the filter

Postby grumpyvette » August 21st, 2010, 9:29 pm

Image

if the oil passage was blocked due to the plug being driven to deeply that would result in your symptoms.

Image
Ive never seen an adapter like this so thats my first guess as to the cause, Id swap that out and see if the problem goes away

most oil filter adapters for chevy look like this
Image

BTW, , on BIG BLOCKS the oil pumps and oil filter adapters are different due to the block oil filter recess and rear seals being different
Image
Image

Image

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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Oil spits out the filter

Postby ChrisMo » August 22nd, 2010, 3:20 pm

Yeah, sorry about that .... the picture for the HPK1 isn't exactly the best picture .... it's actually a 2 part adapter. The first part (with the 2 bolts sticking out) bolts in to replace the stock adapter and then the larger disc with the seal slides onto the center threaded nipple and locks down with a spal nut. The whole unit fills in that recess in the bloc which allows you to use a PH8A filter(which is almost 50% bigger than the SBC PH30) or even a PH1 (which is roughly the size of my head LOL!!!). They usually use that adapter in farm and industrial applications to benefit from the bigger filter. I just used it to kinda eliminate any issues with the stock mounting configuration and yet, the problem was still there!!!

I had also read somewhere else on this site about the main gallery plugs being screwed in too far (that's the first thing that led me to dropping the tranny to check) but they weren't that far in (still had about 2 or 3 threads left on the outside to be flush with the bloc) and, correct me if I'm wrong but, if I had knocked the cam tunnel frost plug in too far (right now the lip sits flush with the outside of the bloc .... is that about right???) and it would have moved the rear cam bearing forward and plugged off the galleries, I wouldn't have any oil "up top" right?!? (coming through out the push-rods)

Right now, I'm thinking maybe the guy gave me a high volume oil pump instead of a stocker and that 25% more oil might just be TOO MUCH!!! The bloc was just machined to stock clearances for a street car not a high performance all-out racer. I'm gonna try a stock oil pump and see if my problem "goes away"!!!At the same time (while I got the pan off) I'll check where plug #3701638 ended up (if it's too far up).

Thanks again for your input!!!

Chris
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Re: Oil spits out the filter

Postby grumpyvette » August 22nd, 2010, 3:30 pm

ChrisMo wrote:Yeah, sorry about that .... the picture for the HPK1 isn't exactly the best picture .... it's actually a 2 part adapter. The first part (with the 2 bolts sticking out) bolts in to replace the stock adapter and then the larger disc with the seal slides onto the center threaded nipple and locks down with a spal nut. The whole unit fills in that recess in the bloc which allows you to use a PH8A filter(which is almost 50% bigger than the SBC PH30) or even a PH1 (which is roughly the size of my head LOL!!!). They usually use that adapter in farm and industrial applications to benefit from the bigger filter. I just used it to kinda eliminate any issues with the stock mounting configuration and yet, the problem was still there!!!

I had also read somewhere else on this site about the main gallery plugs being screwed in too far (that's the first thing that led me to dropping the tranny to check) but they weren't that far in (still had about 2 or 3 threads left on the outside to be flush with the bloc) and, correct me if I'm wrong but, if I had knocked the cam tunnel frost plug in too far (right now the lip sits flush with the outside of the bloc .... is that about right???) and it would have moved the rear cam bearing forward and plugged off the galleries, I wouldn't have any oil "up top" right?!? (coming through out the push-rods)

Right now, I'm thinking maybe the guy gave me a high volume oil pump instead of a stocker and that 25% more oil might just be TOO MUCH!!! The bloc was just machined to stock clearances for a street car not a high performance all-out racer. I'm gonna try a stock oil pump and see if my problem "goes away"!!!At the same time (while I got the pan off) I'll check where plug #3701638 ended up (if it's too far up).

Thanks again for your input!!!

Chris



ok,I CAN ASSURE YOU, its NOT a HIGH VOLUME OIL PUMP ISSUE, if its functioning correctly and installed correctly,because the pumps bye-pass circuit limits the max pressure
your much more likely to have a part mis- match, or a defective part, or some component improperly installed
the symptoms strongly suggest,that you've got a bad seal on the oil filter or an oil passage blockage
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Oil spits out the filter

Postby ChrisMo » August 24th, 2010, 10:44 pm

..... on the oil pump itself ..... the spring in the opening next to the pickup tube, isn't that supposed to be a pressure regulating valve???? Wonder if that might be f**ked up!!!!

.... cause again, if plug #3701638 would have been shoved up past its normal point, I wouldnt be getting any oil at the top right????

.... and I've already cleaned out the main galleries?!?!?

What do you think???
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Re: Oil spits out the filter

Postby grumpyvette » August 25th, 2010, 7:38 am

first let me congratulate you on a really nice picture of the oil pump pressure regulator valve,

ID point out that even if the pumps pressure regulator valve was welded shut at low rpms below about 3500rpm even with a high volume oil pump the volume of oil being pushed thru the engines oil passages and bearing clearances rarely boosts oil pressure up to the point the pressure relief valve opens in any engine so Id suspect strongly that that's not a factor here.
remember the pressure relief valve generally opens at 60-65psi, and if your leaking at start-up its very unlikely at engine speeds below about 3500rpm that your building much over 55 psi even with reasonably thick oil viscosity

keep in mind the oil pump spins at 1/2 the speed of the crank so at 2000rpm on the tach the oil pumps spinning at 1000rpm. and the oil pump gears can only move as much oil volume as the gears sweep volume allows
Image
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: Oil spits out the filter

Postby grumpyvette » August 31st, 2010, 5:36 pm

well? what did you eventually find?????
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: Oil spits out the filter

Postby ChrisMo » September 12th, 2010, 9:57 pm

Well, I ended up changing the oil pump and that fixed the problem. I then disassembled the pressure relief valve in the old pump and, sure enough, the piston was stuck in there!!!! At least now the car is running!!!

Thanks for all the help!!!
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