Oil Properties Related to ZDDP & Detergent



Oil Properties Related to ZDDP & Detergent

Postby Indycars » April 25th, 2011, 5:22 pm

I have been reading on another forum about high detergent levels may be good for longer lasting oils, but it
also removes the ZDDP that is needed for high performance engines. So it's really a balance of the two
additives or like a lot of things with engines.....It's a compromise between the two.

Would seem to make sense when you look at Joe Gibbs Racing Oil for break in. Here is what their web
site has to say for their Break In oil.

Product Features:
* Used by Joe Gibbs Racing to break-in and dyno all their engines
* Petroleum oil provides the highest levels of zinc and phosphorus for flat-tappet engines.
* Additive package promotes ring seal and provides maximum protection available for cams and lifters during initial break-in.
* Requires no additional additives.
* Good for full power pulls on the dyno, one night of racing or up to 400 miles on the street.
* Provides maximum compression and generates maximum horsepower.
* Compatible with methanol and high-octane race fuels.
http://www.joegibbsdriven.com/products/breakin/br.html

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=10186&p=40285#p40285
Any opinions or comments ???
Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
Indycars

User avatar
Forum Admin
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 4424
Joined: May 25th, 2010, 8:58 am
Location: Yukon, OK

Re: Oil Properties Related to ZDDP & Detergent

Postby grumpyvette » April 25th, 2011, 6:26 pm

I find much of the support data misleading at best,
http://www.joegibbsdriven.com/trainingc ... guide.html
it makes it appear that other lubricants by other major manufacturers like SHELL,TEXACO,VALVOLINE, and EXXON, with far better funded engineering departments produce oils with detergents and additives that just suddenly stop functioning, the truth is that both MOLY and ZDDP form a interlocked micro layer on metal surfaces that stays embedded for thousands of miles, or in some cases years of use.

watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... dEFGJqpCMY



MOLYBDENUM: MoS(2): MOLY:

Commercially available molybdenum disulfide comes from a natural mineral, "Molybdenite". As far back as the gold rush days, prospectors found rich out-cropping of the mineral in Colorado. Settlers and prospectors alike used it to lubricate wagon axles. It was not until the 1920's and 1930's that any use was made of the mineral commercially.

Basically MoS2 is a hexagon crystal composed of a lattice of layers of sulphur and molybdenum atoms, they retain their laminar structure no matter how finely pulvarized. Moly has a very low coefficient of friction even in the higher heat ranges to 750 degrees F. It has an extraordinary affinity to stick to metal especially if rubbed in, It is a blue-grey crystal. No way has been found to change the color. Now, that is Moly's early history. What good is it now? Well, for one thing, it has made the near-permanent lubrication of certain chassis points on automobiles possible. Most major automobile manufacturers are very safe in advertising their 30,000 mile lubricating-free chassis and suspension. Ford said they get 100,000 miles without relubrification. That historical claim became possible after research resulted in grease and oils fortified by molybdenum, that could continue to lubricate over periods of time and at pressures never before possible.
What causes it to plate:


Examining the principles of hydrodynamic lubrication (just a technical name for using oil and greases to do a job).
Hydrodynamic lubrication exists when all the asperities (microscopic hills and valleys) of the parts being lubricated are separated by a layer (film) of fluid (oil or grease). The ideal situation is no metal to metal contact and therefore no wear. But, and this is a big one, under sufficient pressure and heat the oil film is squeezed out and the metal surfaces begin to get together. When such a dangerous situation occurs the result will be very high local spot temperature rises which causes a lubrification failure. The result of lubrification failure is galling and scoring of bearings and piston rings which causes high oil consumption or complete failure of parts effected. So how does Moly help with such a problem?

Remembering what we stated above, Moly has the extraordinary affinity to stick to metal, especially if rubbed in. It does not dissolve in oil or grease, It is not possible to grind Moly so small, .35 micron (one micrin equals a millionth of a meter0 that the particles remain suspended in liquids, such as oil, grease, glycol, water and alcohol. When the treatment is added to crankcase oil, temperature and pressure cause instantaneous reaction between Moly and bearing metal, and a low friction solid film is formed to keep the bearing surfaces from actually touching. This plating is firmed by thermo-chemical reaction and it is continuously supplied to the friction surfaces of the engine or equipment parts by being suspended in the fluid lubricant. The Moly solid film friction plating is extremely durable-probably the only method of removal is to grind it off. Because Moly is a lubricant, it is possible for two Moly plated parts such as a bearing and a shaft to run for an indefinite period of time without a fluid oil.

Although little advertising has been done to educate the general public, it certainly is not an idle product. Major oil companies and most large industries are depending on oils and greases fortified with Moly to extend the service life and reduce maintenance on aircraft, trucks, compressors, tractors, ships and automobiles. Properly used it can double the operating life of equipment and reduce maintenance as much as 60%. Another small plus for Moly in these days of fuel prices, is that an engine treated with Moly usually obtains 10% to 25% better fuel mileage. Moly reduces friction in an engine up to 60%.

It is used by the Army and Navy and most major development laboratories, armament test centers, atomic energy, rocket and jet engine plants in the country. It has been found capable of jobs no other lubricant can handle. One company which produces a liquified Moly for engines, demonstrates the effectivness of Moly by draining the oil from Moly treated three horse-powered air cooled engines and running them to demonstrate the effectivness of their product. This writer witnessed the demonstration which allowed the engine to run for hours at a time. The engine was in perfect condition when stopped. It is an unusual experience to watch an engine run while you are holding the oil plug, refer to the 105 mile torture test. Manufacturers of many parts of auto and industry are now using Moly in the manufacture of parts and equipment. The major manufacturers of outboard and inboard marine engines are advertising their use of Moly on piston rings for their speed equipment. The manufacturers of our finest automobiles supply engines with Moly coated piston rings. They also state in their repair manuals that Moly should be used during assembly after overhaul or repair. Moly plated parts are available for auto and equipment through major suppliers.

Moly gear oil has become increasingly popular as an assembly lubricant for gear boxes, bearing assemblies and engines. Rubbing surfaces with Moly have a much longer life. Because Moly will withstand pressures to 500,000 lbs per square inch and temperatures to 750 degrees F, it has become popular for use in greases for ball joints, wheel bearings, U-joints and many other high temperature and high pressure points on trucks, automobiles, tractors and aircraft. Moly suspended in grease is capable of withstanding extreme heat. When holding a burning match to a small ammount of Moly on a screwdriver it will not melt until it starts to burn.

Drivers of race equipment have discovered that a Molly treated engine will develop more R.P.M. because of less engine oil drag and less friciton. They are also able to run more races between overhauls. Less wear enables engine to retain cylinder compression longer.

You now know what Moly is and what Moly does. Now for a word of caution, Molybdenum Disulfide is a miracle lubricant as described. No other product can insure lubrication protection as it does- but Moly is not a cure all lubricant. It will not correct mechanical defects or cause old worn or worn parts to be like new. Properly used it can double the life of equipment and increase the mileage 10% to 25% and as stated, it is available to those who desire the best protection available for diesels, gas engines, compressors and industrial equipment.

Ive had excellent results using VALVOLINE race 10w30 , TEXACO, and SHELL 10w30 oils with one of the break-in additives and mixing those with a quart of MMO, and a break-in additive, is not as important in my opinion as coating the cam lobes and lifters with a good moly paste and placing a few magnets in the engine to trop metallic debris, and checking the clearances, then once the cam is lapped in, replacing the oil and oil filter after 3-4 hours run in time
most cam failures I see are RELATED to INCORRECT CLEARANCE issues, or failure to even check clearances, OR use of the wrong valve spring load rates, not the OIL USED, guys always want to blame the cam manufacturer or the oil, and its usually a failure to verify clearances thats the issue

1052367
ENGOILSUP
EOS - Engine Assembly Prelube<BR>Specifically formulated as an engine assembly lubricant. E.O.S. provides outstanding protection against run-in wear and piston scuffing as well as run-in camshaft lobe and lifter scuffing resulting from insufficient lubrication Image
very good
Image
very very good
Image
Image
Image
Image
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1489&p=3360&hilit=erson+break+in#p3360
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

User avatar
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida

Re: Oil Properties Related to ZDDP & Detergent

Postby Indycars » April 25th, 2011, 6:59 pm

I'm a bit suspicious of such claims where you can run an engine without oil and do no harm. I would
guess it depends a lot on the conditions under which the test is run, probably without any kind of load,
but still impressive.

Do you know who wrote the article originally ???

I have a preference for this type of Molly :!:
MollyRingwald.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
Indycars

User avatar
Forum Admin
Forum Admin
 
Posts: 4424
Joined: May 25th, 2010, 8:58 am
Location: Yukon, OK

Re: Oil Properties Related to ZDDP & Detergent

Postby grumpyvette » April 25th, 2011, 9:18 pm

most of the more modern oil formulas designed for modern engines with roller cams and catalytic converters have a good deal less ZINC that the older formulations designed for the pre- catalytic converter/ emission testing, and flat tappet cam engines of the muscle car era so they have less ability to lubricate the cam lifter lobe contact area, ZINC was used in the older formulas as it provided extra wear resistance, but over time it tends to reduce the catalytic converter efficiency.All current engine oils have an additive called ZDDP (Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) for wear protection. theres several reasons you might want to run synthetic oils but the modern dino oils are a huge improvement over previous blends in some areas. In general, heavy duty engine oils (truck oils like Mobil Delvac) have a higher level of ZDDP. Automotive engine oils generally have a lower level of ZDDP to protect catalytic systems.
a MINIMUM level of ZDDP of 1800PPM is suggested for use with flat tappet cams and lifters AS IS breaking the cam in with a MOLY based assembly lube and an oil having that minimum ZDDP level
synthetic oils have a higher temp limitation and can last longer between oil changes, but SOME modern formulations were not formulated for the older flat tappet cam and lifter friction levels
now if I was swapping to a synthetic oil with a flat tappet cam ID verify with the manufacturer that it would provide the required lubrication or ID either use a ZDDP additive, as the combo would provide some extra wear protection because the current oil formulas were not designed for flat tappet cams, or ID used a 50%/50% mix of DIESEL engine OIL with its higher Zddp and a synthetic oil


[

this might help

Image

Image

Image
The camshaft had an as-cast Brinell hardness in the range of 331 to 364. The camshaft was.heated to 1600°F (871°C) in 20 minutes in an electric furnace. The furnace temperature was then raised to 1640°F (893°C) and held at that temperature for 80 minutes. Subsequently, the temperature in the furnace was cooled to.400°F (204°C) in one and a half hours. The camshaft was then taken out of .the furnace and allowed to air cool. The hardness of the camshaft thus heat treated was in the range of 311 to 321 BHN.
this is HARDER AND MORE WEAR RESISTANT THAN THE LIFTER BASE BY DESIGN



viewtopic.php?f=52&t=6237&p=32472&hilit=lifter+spin#p32472

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4793&p=13273&hilit=lifter+spin#p13273


Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
very good
Image
very very good
Image
Image

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2102

http://www.pqiamerica.com/apiserviceclass.htm

there ARE ZDDP additives available, that will allow use of the newer oils in older flat tappet cam engines during the critical cam break-in process

READ THE LINKED INFO

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/API.html

Image

GREASE - Multi-purpose lithium-based grease
M -Molybdenum disulfide grease with at least 3% moly content
MP - Molybdenum disulfide paste with at least 40% moly content

hand coat or brush on moly paste on cam lobes and lifter bases and rocker balls on stock rockers and coat crank journals and you form a protective barrier that can stand 550F temps and well over 400,000 psi pressure which the parts it is on seldom can tolerate, yes having a quality oil with ZDDP sure helps but MOLY provides excellent protection as long as theres a cooling flow of oil in the 200F-300f temp range flowing over the surface the molys embedded in

States of Lubrication

HYDRODYNAMIC LUBRICATION

The design of oil is to produce a film of oil between two mating surfaces which gives you the best protection against wear. As the image below shows, oil flows, and creates a hydraulic pressure (elasto-hydrodynamic lubrication,EHL) between the two surfaces. Now under perfect conditions this type of lubrication will not allow wear. But in reality, this is not always the case.This takes us to the next state of lubrication.

hydrodynamic lubrication

MIXED FILM LUBRICATION
This is where lubrication is marginal. Under load conditions oil is squeezed under pressure. For example, during accelleration of an engine, you step on the gas and the engine dumps fuel, in turn the force is increased against the rod bearings, pushing (or squeezing) on the hydrodynamic oil creating a marginal lubrication condition. This is under normal use. But what happens to oil when it is under extreme pressure created by abuse or just a heavy foot? Follow me to the next state of lubrication.
mixed_film_lubrication



BOUNDARY LUBRICATION

This is where lubrication is dependant on antiwear additives. What happens here, is lubrication can be put under so much pressure, and is momentarily squeezed out to such a point that if oil didn't have any antiwear additives, you would be metal to metal. This is the last line of defense for lubrication to protect your equipment. A common place where you see a lot of high levels of barrier lubricant is in gear lubes. Ever wonder what that rotten smell was? Yep, high levels of zinc, and phosphorus. These are the two most used antiwear wear additives used in oils today.

boundary_lubrication


A lot of aftermarket additives use zinc and phosphorus for extra protection. The problem is, when you overload an oil with this type of additive, your oxidation levels tend to increase, causing an attack on the base oil, which in turn can cause an increase of viscosity, (thicken the oil) .This is why it is important not to play home chemist and blend in aftermarket additives that are not designed to be in the oil to start with.

So, as you can see, viscosity of the oil isn't the only important factor. Like building a house, you want a good foundation or base. Then you would use a quality product to build with. In this case, a good base oil is a start, then with good additives you achieve a good lubricant. Is zinc and phosphorus the only barrier additives available? No, there are more. Follow me to a barrier lubricant that has been around for a long time and has proven out for many years...
Molybdenum Disulfide
Molybdenum is a very hard metal with a number of industrial uses:

It is combined with chromium in steel to make the steel harder and more resistant to bending. Most of the bicycle frames produced today use chromium and molybdenum steel. Because the steel is so much harder, the manufacturers can use less, thereby making the frame lighter.

Molybdenum Disulfide (Moly) has been used for decades in lubricating pastes and greases because it is slippery and forms a protective coating on metal parts:

Single Molecule of MolyMoly exists as microscopic hexagonal crystal platelets Several molecules make up one of these platelets. A single molecule of Moly contains two sulfur atoms and one molybdenum atom. Moly platelets are attracted to metal surfaces. This attraction and the force of moving engine parts rubbing across one another provide the necessary thermochemical reaction necessary for Moly to form an overlapping protective coating like armor on all of your engine parts. This protective armor coating has a number of properties that are very beneficial for your engine.

The Moly platelets that make up the protective layers on your engine surfaces slide across one another very easily. Instead of metal rubbing against metal, you have Moly platelets moving across one another protecting and lubricating the metal engine parts.

This coating effectively fills in the microscopic pores that cover the surface of all engine parts, making them smoother. This feature is important in providing an effective seal on the combustion chamber. By filling in the craters and pores Moly improves this seal allowing for more efficient combustion and engine performance.
This overlapping coating of Moly also gives protection against loading (perpendicular) forces. These forces occur on the bearings, and lifters. The high pressures that occur between these moving parts tend to squeeze normal lubricants out.

squeeze

Eventually, there is metal to metal contact, which damages these moving parts and creates large amounts of heat. Fortunately, this is not the case with some lubricants.The layer of moly that forms on these moving surfaces can withstand pressures of 500,000 psi, without being squeezed out.

nosqueeze

Engineers and scientists have tried for years to use Moly in motor oils but they had been unsuccessful because they could not find a way to keep Moly in suspension. Once Moly was put into suspension it would gradually settle out. It was easy to see it come out of suspension because a black sludge would collect on the bottom of the oil containers. In engines it would settle to the bottom of the crankcase or clog oil pathways and filters.

Engineers have overcome these obstacles. They have developed a process that keeps Moly in suspension and isn't filtered out. Since that time the product has undergone extensive independent testing in labs and in the field for many years to insure that the product stands up to the rigorous needs of today's engines. With the plating action of Moly reducing friction which reduces heat, this helps keep rings free from carbon buildup, prevents blow-by, decreases emission, and extends oil life.

ZDDP: What does it mean to me?
View the printable pdf version

Oil is killing our cars!” warns Keith Ansell, President of Foreign Parts Positively. “Be aware that ‘New and Improved,’ or even the ‘standard products’ we have been using for many years, are destroying our cars. It isn’t the same stuff we were getting even a year ago.”

Although a bit of a sensationalist, Keith is not completely out of line and he isn’t the only Internet auto expert touting the effects of the industry required ZDDP (zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate) decrease in motor oil.

Twelve years ago, the maximum ZDDP level in passenger car motor oil was 1600ppm. Over the years, the EPA has slowly decreased the allowed amount to today’s range of 600-800ppm. ZDDP’s primary purpose is to prevent wear in high friction areas of the engine such as camshafts, connecting rods and lifters, which is probably why Keith is so concerned about its decline.

Less ZDDP = More engine wear?
The reduction of ZDDP in motor oils has caused many issues in flat tappet engines and a big stir in the classic car forum. Most V-8 engines in the muscle car era (cars built before 1975) came standard with a flat tappet camshaft and no catalytic converter. The flat tappet is, for the most part, flat on the bottom. Flat tappet cams are under a lot of pressure and require an extra oil additive for tight tolerances. Oil is the only thing between the lifter and camshaft lobe preventing them from welding each other together. Without sufficient lubrication during break-in and over long-term use, cams can suffer pitting, uneven lobes and severe wear patterns. So, in high performance or classic cars, opt for heavy-duty, performance or racing oils with higher levels of ZDDP that will provide flat tappet cams with anti-scuffing, anti-wear and oxidation inhibition.

Ok, so what about your basic passenger car? In the last decade or so, car manufacturers switched to more reliable, efficient roller camshafts for mass production. Because roller cams don’t require the same level of zinc protection as flat tappet cams, passenger car engines can afford a decrease in ZDDP. In fact, less ZDDP could actually be a good thing. Phosphorous—one of the main ingredients—is a poison to catalytic converters (fitted in most passenger cars since the mid-70s). Excessive ZDDP content will bond to the metal catalyst beads inside the converter rendering it useless as a pollution control device. See why the EPA wants to regulate the life requirement of the catalyst?

In order to meet API SM specifications, oil manufacturers must decrease ZDDP. Today’s modern passenger car oils contain other dedicated antioxidants to make up for the loss of ZDDP and resulting in a better overall product for consumers.

To sum up, less ZDDP is suitable for vehicles with roller cams and catalytic converters and bad for vehicles with flat tappet cams and no cat.

How can BG help?
BG MOA® uses a combination of additives that improve oil s ability to withstand breakdown due to combustion byproducts, increased temperatures and loads, and frictional wear. And unlike many other oil additives, BG MOA® does not fully rely on ZDDP as its sole anti-wear additive and antioxidant. BG MOA® relies on its proprietary additives for extra wear protection and oxidation stability under severe condition like that of engines with flat tappet cams. For cars with catalytic converters, BG MOA® only contains ZDDP to a similar concentration as a typical base engine oil, which is not enough to ruffle a cat s fur.

If the cat already stinks, it doesnt necessarily mean its poisoned by ZDDP. Chances are hydrocarbon deposits from combustion have plugged it up. And a dirty cat can pump noxious gases into the air and reduce engine performance. For extra protection of the catalytic converter and oxygen sensor, pour in a can of BG 44K® in the fuel tank every 7,500 miles. BG 44K® is proven to restore converter efficiency and remove deposits from the oxygen sensor ultimately restoring power and performance.

So the next time you hear someone like Keith yelling, an Oil is killing our cars! recommend BG MOA® for superior lubrication and wear protection of the engines moving parts even flat tappet cams.




AMSOIL RACING - 3200PPM

CASTROL GTX - 1900PPM

BRAD PENN RACING OIL-2100-2500PPM

REDLINE - 2200-3000PPM

MOBIL - 2500-2900PPM

VALVOLINE DURABLEND 2600PPM
Image
very good
Image
very very good
Image
Image

read the links
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=282&p=345#p345

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=150

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1334

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=615

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=296
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

User avatar
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida

Re: Oil Properties Related to ZDDP & Detergent

Postby grumpyvette » May 14th, 2011, 10:28 am

greg_moreira posted this info

Regaurding synthetic.....talk to your builder. A lot of breakin depends on materials used and machining practices. Cylinder finish honing has come a long way, as well as the materials that we use for some rings(among other parts). One builder I highly respect that builds and ships stuff for guys all over the country often says "the rings practically break in on the starter anymore".

Granted...that might be a lil bit of humor injected, but for the most part...what he is saying is accurate. The quality of the finish, the straightness of the bore(with the head bolted on) and the material of the ring faces all mix into how fast or slow the rings take a seat. Many current practices let them break in right quick. If you go out and buy somethin brand new.....it's probably frequently full of synthetic and you can bet they didnt test drive that vehicle for 5 or 600 miles before making the switch. They built it and ran it as is with synth because the build design supports it. Thats why I say ask your builder. Be aware of what he is using. Or....if you selected most of it, tell him about what you bought and what his experience is with your parts, his machine work, and synth oil.

Personally Id run it right now on a well machined block. Ive never had bad luck with synthetic. My oil change intervals are usually 10 thousand miles with mobil 1 synthetic. Ive got about 110 thousand on the motor so far.

For the old stuff.....I used to run brad penn semi synthetic oil(the old kendall green stuff). I switched to mobil delvac super 1300 due to my valvetrain guys recommendation. He makes parts for many OE and aftermarket suppliers and with the particular lifters Ive gone with....many of his customers(including the US navy) have reported the best service life with this oil when using the particular parts I bought from him, hence the switch to the delvac stuff.

Concerning flat tappets....a bit problem is cam core and lifter quality. Back in the day...everything used a flat tappet. Nowadays....nothing does except our old dinosaur motors we build for fun. Back when the OE's built flat tappet motors, the demand for quality was there because millions of these units were being put into service. We had the luxury of the OE buying power to make sure that the cam cores and lifters were of the utmost quality.



Today though not so much. Factory motors are roller motors and the flat tappet demand is few and far between. The demand for quality dropped without the OE influence.

Now....we have cores that dont quite have the proper taper on the lobes, and lifters that dont have quite the proper crown. Not always....but more than usual. Proper machine work is important too. Those lifter bores need indexed properly to aid even good lifters to spin properly.

Concerning oil....zinc and phosphorus isnt the end all be all, but it has impact. All the ZDDP in the world cant help a lifter that doesnt spin right in its bore(wich may be the fault of the lifter crown, lobe taper, or lifter bore), but if its all going well...those high pressure additives still improve longevity.

Just one last thing.....another thing we have to combat is the modern aggressive nature of many cams. Lifter intensity numbers of a modern "aggressive" flat tappet have skyrocketed compared to what would have been stock circa 1970. With those aggressive lobes....things get dicey even in a perfect environment. Its just harder on the whole package.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

User avatar
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida

Re: Oil Properties Related to ZDDP & Detergent

Postby Randy_W » May 14th, 2011, 1:08 pm

I bought two flat tappet cams in the last 3 months, one company absolutely swore it had to be broken in with Brad Penn, the other said if you don't use Joe Gibbs, don't call me when it takes off a lobe! :lol: I used Comp cams additive and Brad Penn in both and both are happily cruising as we speak. ;)
Randy
Don't mess with old men, we didn't get that way by being stupid!
Randy_W

User avatar
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 756
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 8:57 pm

Re: Oil Properties Related to ZDDP & Detergent

Postby grumpyvette » May 15th, 2011, 8:04 pm

http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles ... index.html

Image

The Hendrick Philosophy
Oil Technology


This photo is a view through the bottom of the block at the top of the cam tunnel. Hendrick Motorsports uses these oil squirters to shoot a steady stream of oil on each of the cam lobes. Randolph says it's the organization's philosophy to provide pressurized oil to any area in the engine where proper oiling is critical. "Splash" oiling is simply too haphazard.

"The one piece of advice I would give no matter what class you run is to use a quality motor oil that's as thin as you can get by with, and run it with the least pressure you can get away with," says Randolph. Of course, as he says this, Randolph smiles because he knows the million-dollar question is, how do you find out how thin you can run the oil and with how little pressure?

Many books can be written on just this topic, but in order to get a more simple, practical answer, Randolph gives me a tour of Hendrick's engine facilities and shows me some of the answers they've found for their lubrication problems. Interestingly, Randolph says the HMS engine department is often experimenting with different viscosities and is willing, in a sense, to build the engine around the motor oil. By that, he means the bearing clearances and oil pressure they want plus how much heat they are willing to say is acceptable.

When it comes to fighting friction inside the engine, Randolph says there are three main areas of concern: the bearings (both main and cam), the interface between the camshaft lobe and the lifter face, and the interface between the pushrod tip and the rocker arm socket. Wherever oiling is critical, HMS tries to make sure it is delivered to that spot under pressure. For example, in addition to providing oil to the cam journal through the oil galleries under pressure, oil squirters also aim a steady stream of oil at each of the cam lobes. To keep the wristpins from galling inside the small end of the rod, each rod is also cut with an oiling gallery through the beam. Pressurized oil feeds the rod bearing from the camshaft, and some of that makes its way through the gallery in the beam of the rod to lubricate the wristpin.

One interesting aspect of how HMS controls oil flow inside its engines is that the engine can actively prioritize what goes where. Oil squirters are installed in the bottom of the block aimed at the underside of the pistons. This spray of oil helps pull heat away from the pistons and aids oiling between the wristpins and the pin bosses in the pistons. This, however, isn't a critical oiling function, so the squirters are built with tiny metering blocks that cut off the flow when the pressure falls below a certain point. For example, when a race car is sitting at idle during a pit stop, the low rpm level means the oil pressure isn't nearly as high as when the car is at racing rpm. This is when the squirters shut off so that when the driver nails the gas to accelerate out of the pits, there is still plenty of oil in the bearings and spraying on the lobes.

Mineral vs. Synthetic

According to Ferner, the difference between mineral-based oil and synthetic oil isn't that one is naturally more slippery than another, as you might think. In terms of lubricity, the base stocks of mineral-based and synthetic oils are quite similar-it's how they react to heat that differentiates them.

"Where the synthetic oil really shines is in extreme temperature situations," he says. "In racing, we're talking about really hot environments, so we'll limit our discussion to that. Having an oil that can withstand higher temps longer opens up some doors for us. If you were to take a conventional mineral-based motor oil and subject it to the most brutal conditions, what you would see is it will slowly start to oxidize as it reacts with the heat and oxygen. It starts to form sludge particles that thicken the oil. So if you track the oil over time of engine operation, you would see the oil start getting thicker and thicker at a progressive rate until it gets to the point that the base oil just cannot take any more. Then the viscosity just skyrockets to a semi-solid condition very quickly."

Even if you typically run low oil and water temps or change your mineral-based oil frequently, there can still be drawbacks. Oil temperatures around the piston rings can spike to 400-450 degrees F, so even if you run an oil temperature sensor in the pan, you probably aren't getting the complete picture. Also, because the viscosity of mineral-based oil makes much greater changes with conventional oil than with synthetic, it can be more difficult to find that "sweet spot" when everything is working together correctly. Finding the right combination of viscosity, oil pressure, and bearing clearances to run is tricky. Add to that the fact that your oil's viscosity changes with temperature, and you've just made yourself a moving target. This is especially true if you are trying to qualify and race the same oil or if the racing program at your track doesn't always give you the opportunity to warm your engine.

Synthetic oils are much more stable over a range of temperatures. Although it's not perfect, the viscosity-and ability to protect an engine-of a synthetic oil is going to be much the same at 180 and 220 versus a conventional oil. If you are about to make a qualifying run and wish to completely tape up the nose of the car, the short sharp spike in oil temps that will result won't be as harmful. Likewise, you can also get away with slightly higher temps for a longer period. Although it's probably a little too radical for the rest of us, Randolph admits that HMS has raced with oil temps as high as 350 degrees F.

In addition, the stability a synthetic offers over a mineral-based oil allows the designing chemists the advantage with what additives they are able to work with. "Even if you are changing your oil regularly and not worried about sludge buildup, the advantage of synthetic is that the molecules in the base oil are more consistent," Bastien adds. "We are able to really focus the formulation effort on the additives doing their specific job rather than trying to find additives that work as the base oil changes or oxidizes. The more consistent base that synthetic provides allows us to widen our parameters of what we can accomplish with our additive packages."

Foaming
Oil Technology


Because it's squirted under pressure, splashed by the valvesprings and crankshaft, and otherwise simply flying around all over the place inside the engine, it's often easier than you think for air bubbles to become trapped in the oil. "Foaming" the oil is the term used when so many air bubbles are trapped in the oil in one area that it can no longer perform as intended. The air bubbles are compressible and reduce the oil's ability to separate moving metal parts with a thin film. It's also difficult to pump effectively.

One of the first signs that the engine oil has foamed up is a loss of oil pressure. Unfortunately, many racers read a lack of pressure as oil starvation when it's actually the opposite. Too much oil in the pan allows the crankshaft to splash the oil, causing air bubbles to mix in. The addition of air bubbles in the oil has the effect of raising the perceived volume of oil, thus raising the fluid level in the oil pan. This allows more oil to make contact with the counterweights of the crankshaft as it spins by and whips it up. You can see where we are going from here. There are other ways for air to become trapped in the oil besides contact with the crankshaft, but the results are never good.

Unfortunately, the high rpm levels inherent in racing makes foaming the oil much more likely. Quality racing oils will include additives that fight the tendency to foam, but you must also take whatever precautions you can to keep foaming down-including not running more oil than your pan and windage tray can effectively contain.

If you suspect your engine oil is foaming, it can sometimes be difficult to confirm. If you are limited to on-track testing, experiment with using less oil in the pan. If your problem actually is oil starvation at the pickup, the low pressure problem should still persist. If, however, too much oil is causing the foaming problem, this may take care of it. If you have the luxury of engine dyno testing, try monitoring the oil level in the pan immediately after a series of pulls. The air bubbles in the oil will slightly raise the level in the pan. If you can track this, you can get an idea if foaming is a problem in your engine. CT
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

User avatar
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida

Re: Oil Properties Related to ZDDP & Detergent

Postby grumpyvette » June 1st, 2011, 6:57 am

http://micapeak.com/info/oiled.html


theres a chart here that may help, IM not sure its current but at least its a start point in your search for a decent oil
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

User avatar
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida

Re: Oil Properties Related to ZDDP & Detergent

Postby larrym » October 5th, 2011, 3:36 pm

Just cruising around and stumbled on to this thread what are your opinions on Schaeffer's oil, read the reference's to moly and I run this oil since I spray straight methanol on a 7th injector that's boost activated as a detonation suppressant and this product is designed for use with alcohol motors.

http://www.schaefferoil.com/cmss_files/ ... ts/191.pdf
Image
60lb injectors with Turbo Tweak Chip
Turbonetics BB CPT 61
CAS V4 Stretch Intercooler
Alcohol Injection
lots of fun with a little 6 banger!
Best ET 11.88
larrym

User avatar
 
Posts: 42
Joined: October 4th, 2011, 2:30 pm

Re: Oil Properties Related to ZDDP & Detergent

Postby grumpyvette » October 5th, 2011, 5:06 pm

"MICRON MOLY" is a brand name for an additive, that Schaeffer's oil, may or may not be great oil, but wheres some independent test results has VERY LOW LEVELS of moly in every test IVE seen, they could call the stuff "greased polar ice" and it would have exactly the same relationship to the MOLY content in the oil as calling it "MICRON MOLY", read VERY CAREFULLY, the PARTS PER MILLION OF MOLY IS NEVER LISTED
in this day and age oil can easily be analyzed and ive never seen any testing showing its got exceptional properties that several similar brand name oils don,t also have so Ill remain skeptical till testing shows some advantage in its use.
anytime a product fails to list the amount of its featured additive in PARTS PER MILLION, they may as well claim its 100% pure unicorn sweat, bottled by elves


http://www.unofficialbmw.com/all/misc/all_oilfaq.html

http://www.schaefferoil.com/cmss_files/ ... ts/132.pdf

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub ... t=3&page=1

http://www.firstfives.org/faq/oil/oilartcl.html
heres some common oil info

.................................................. Zinc.........Phos......Moly....Total det.........TBN

Amsoil 0W30 Sig. Series API SN..........824..........960.......161.......3564 ...........11.4
Mobil 1 5W30 API SN.......................801...........842.......1 12......1489............7.5
Mobil 1 5W30 Ext. Perf. API SN...........890..........819.......104.......1697 ............7.9
Quaker State 5W30 Ult. Dur. API SN.....877..........921.........72.......2845..... .......7.9
Valvoline 5W30 SYNPower API SN..........969..........761.........0........2628 ............7.1
Pennzoil 5W30 Ultra API SM.................806..........812........66..... ..3387..........10.3
Castol 5W30 Edge API SM....................955..........799.......149.. .....3277..........10
Castrol 5W30 Edge w/Ti API SN............818..........883.......90........181 0..........10.1
Castrol 5W20 Edge w/Ti API SN...........1042..........857......100.......1952 ...........9.5
Castrol 5W30 GTX API SM....................888..........873........0... ......2982............7.5
Royal Purple 5W30 API SN....................942..........817........0... ......2834...........7.7
Royal Purple 5W20 API SN....................964..........892.........0.. ......2875..........7.7
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

User avatar
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida

Re: Oil Properties Related to ZDDP & Detergent

Postby larrym » October 5th, 2011, 11:35 pm

Thanks for the feed back, with an updated roller cam what would you be running in my shoes.
With the flat tappet cam I was always concerned with zinc levels I might try a full synthetic when the motor is back together.
Image
60lb injectors with Turbo Tweak Chip
Turbonetics BB CPT 61
CAS V4 Stretch Intercooler
Alcohol Injection
lots of fun with a little 6 banger!
Best ET 11.88
larrym

User avatar
 
Posts: 42
Joined: October 4th, 2011, 2:30 pm

Re: Oil Properties Related to ZDDP & Detergent

Postby grumpyvette » October 6th, 2011, 8:12 am

depends mostly on local price and how frequently you change oil and the quality of the oil filters used.
Ive run 8 quarts of mobile 1 with 1 quart of MARVEL MYSTERY OIL in my 10 quart oil pan for years,
the engine parts look almost new, even with most parts having well over 70k miles, which is a good deal on a performance 383 thats only used as a weekend toy
If you like synthetics mobile one ,or amsoil work fine
but Id have no problem running 8 quarts of chevron supreme , or 8 quarts of KENDAL GT with 1 quart of MARVEL MYSTERY OIL in my 10 quart oil pan either with a good roller cam,provided you change the oil and filter every 5000 miles, oil quality has improved a good deal in the last few years, the key to limiting wear is a good filter and reasonably frequent oil changes and not stressing the engine until your oil temp reaches at least 200f
theres no reason to change most engine oil in less than 3500 miles and the better synthetics can easily get a filter change at 5000 miles and an oil and filter change at 10,000 miles


read these links

http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles ... esting.htm

http://www.unofficialbmw.com/all/misc/all_oilfaq.html

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/bearing-wear-analysis/

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/ho ... ts/1266801

http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_comparison/

http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/sae_ ... index.html

http://www.upmpg.com/motor_oil_rate_gas.htm
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

User avatar
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida


Return to Oil and Lube Systems

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron