whats a windage tray do?



whats a windage tray do?

Postby grumpyvette » September 17th, 2008, 10:47 am

"OK GRUMPYVETTE< I have dumb question? What is a windage tray and whats it for?"

Ill try and answer that so you'll see the advantage of using one, first its not going to make you a great deal of extra horsepower, it MIGHT increase your rear wheel power 3-5 hp,in most applications, or a bit more if used with a crank scraper in combination, but what it will more than likely do IF its correctly installed with a matching baffled high capacity oil pan which along with a crank scraper, is become part of a total system to greatly increase oil flow control and maintain much more consistent oil flow and consistent pressure to the bearings.
the main function of the windage tray or screen is to help maintain a higher volume of oil covering the oil pump pick-up, and prevent oil from being whipped into a froth containing air which will reduce bearing cooling and hydraulic surface support on the moving parts. its properly installed use , tends to speed the flow of returning oil to the sump, and reduce the oil in the crank case dragged around the lower engine with the spinning crank assembly, and reduce the air or foam in the oil pan sump.
the question always seems to come up about, "if you have a baffled high capacity oil pan, if you really need a windage tray?"
, the answer will vary with the application and the cars intended use, and average engine rpm, the engines run at, and in my opinion,for a street performance application, a correctly built 7-8 quart baffled oil pans probably fine, below about 6000rpm, without adding an additional windage screen,but generally youll see more consistent oil pressure with one installed, even well below that rpm level.
but I certainly would instal a windage screen on something like a road race car, even with a high capacity baffled oil pan, but in an application like that I,d also suggest an oil cooler too!
(provided your stuck with a wet sump oil pan, obviously a dry sump oil system with a 4 stage scavenging pump would be advantageous)
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1058&p=2016&hilit=drysump#p2016

Ive placed both scat and eagle crank shafts next to a similar chevy OEM crank, and carefully examined all three and in my opinion the eagle crank was the least well finished with the scat crank being the best, now obviously all three manufacturers have made several grades of cranks and Ive used a truck load of SCAT and FORGED CHEVY crank shafts over the years with good results

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knife edging a cranks counter weights BEFORE balancing the assembly reduces windage looses but can also make balancing the assembly more expensive
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HERES A STOCK BIG BLOCK CHEVY WINDAGE TRAY (BARELY FUNCTIONAL BUT DIRT CHEAP)

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HERES ONE THAT WORKS
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http://www.rehermorrison.com.previewdns ... _21049.pdf
above is one type of windage tray, it bolts in most cases to extended main cap bolts and is located about 1/8" outside the arc of the spinning crank and rods,
HERES AN AFTERMARKET DESIGN THATS MORE EXPENSIVE BUT MORE EFFECTIVE
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oil trapped or dragged by the spinning assembly passes over it surface, and louvers or a screen shears off oil and routes it efficiently into the oil pan, rather than constantly being dragged around with the spinning assembly like liquid in a blender.
1/8" works really well, , now IM sure if its a bit closer at .080- .100 it won,t matter much, remember the idea is to have the spinning crank assembly passing over the windage trays surface acting as a pump impeller to efficiently sweep the surface oil falling from the upper engine into the sump, quickly and efficiently, rather than allowing it to follow the crank as it rotates around constantly in the lower engine.
Adding a correctly installed and designed windage tray or screen assembly usually reduces drag on the crank and can result in a 3-5 hp increase but its main function is far more effective , return of oil to the sump, thus reducing the probability of oil pressure/supply problems, to the bearings, and over whelming the oil rings. Oil that's being whipped into a frothy oil/air mix, by the rotating assembly won,t provide the required lubrication, cooling and bearing protection
keep in mind the main function of a windage screen when its properly installed is to speed the return of oil flowing back from the upper engine and oil caught by the rotating assembly , back into the lower oil pan for rapid reuse. your trying to maintain oil levels in the sump for a dependable and consistent control of oil flow to the bearings by insuring return rates and oil volume around the oil pump pick-up.
your also reducing pumping losses as your reducing the weight of oil the spinning rotating assembly is dragging around in the lower engine as the spinning assembly acts a bit like a oil pump impeller as it sweeps oil into the sump, as it passes oil thrown from the crank, which is being more efficiently directed into the sump. its use is not so much about power gains as it is about maintaining total oil control
READ THIS LINK

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/cc ... index.html
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running an engine like this picture above ,with just an open oil pan, tends to waste 4-8 hp or more at higher rpms and may over load the rings with oil on the cylinder walls, and cause the bearings to get intermittent oil pressure
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installing the combo of crank scraper and windage tray allows you to regain 4-8 hp,too have much better controlled ,& dependable lubrication and oil pressure and have less chance for bearing damage from oil starvation
without a windage screen oil in the sump is frequently whipped into a froth at high rpms reducing bearing support and cooling
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with a windage screen oil in the sump is protected from being whipped into a froth at high rpms, thus increasing bearing support and cooling, so bearings tend to last a good deal longer

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some oil pans have them built into them,
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the purpose is to BOTH speed the return of oil to the sump from the oil spinning off the bearings and rods/crank ETC. and to isolate the oil in the sump from the effects of the spinning crank acting as an impeller.
without a windage tray or screen the spinning crank assembly tends to beat the oil in the sump into a froth of oil and air at high rpm levels
with the windage screen properly installed the oil pushed over the surface is sheared off and thrown into the sump for reuse at the oil pump at a faster rate and partially isolated from the impeller effect of the spinning crank assembly.
keep in mind pushing/DRAGGING the oil around with the spinning crank assembly takes HORSEPOWER so minimizing the volume has the benefit of freeing up a bit of hp AND aiding or adding too the oil pumps supply of oil to the bearings in the sump as it speeds its return to the oil pump.
the correctly designed windage tray or SCREEN and CRANK SCRAPPER assembly doesn,t prevent oil from falling on the spinning crank, but centrifugal force throws that oil to the outside of the arc, where, its dragged around, and forced into the sump, what it does is provide a very effective flow of that oil back into the sump as the spinning crank acts as an impeller and drags the oil 1/2 way around its rotation and throws it into the sump for re-use rather than having the oil constantly and endlessly dragged around in a 360 degree circle by the spinning crank assembly, that far more efficient flow of oil limits the amount of drag the crank sees, and speeds the oil back where its useful, vs allowing it to be beat to a froth, and dragged constantly with the crank.

while its true that pumping oil, falling from the lifter gallery , around the crankcase with the rotating assembly, adds some drag and costs some hp, adding a correctly fitted windage screen and high capacity baffled oil pan to route that draining oil back to the sump efficiently minimizes the loss, and your forgetting that oil spray helps lube the rings and cam and cools the pistons, Ive seen more problems caused than solved restricting oil drain back.
I don,t restrict oil drain back, I use a windage screen and high capacity baffled oil pan designed to route the oil efficiently back to the sump, in theory at least the vast majority of the return oil flow will only make it dragged around about 240 degrees of the cranks rotational arc ONCE, but then Ive always prized absolute durability and dependability over getting the last possible 4-5 hp from an engine if it might lower that dependability, keep in mind the main gain in use of a baffled oil pan,windage screen and crank scraper used as a combo,is in effectively controlling and speeding oil return to the oil pump,and oil pan sump so you never have oil pressure fluctuation under high rpm or g-force loads, that a stock oil pan is subject too in a high performance environment, its not a big horse power gain, but it can be a huge improvement in engine durability

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the milodon style windage screens work more effectively,
http://www.milodon.com/oil-system/winda ... -studs.asp

as they drain oil to the sump faster
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ESPECIALLY WITH A CAREFULLY FITTED CRANK SCRAPPER ADDED
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I would not be all that concerned with measuring the oil level , in an oil pan by pouring oil in it to determine if the oil will be hitting the crank during engine operation.
remember theres about 2 quarts in the blocks oil passage ways, heads and lifter gallery at higher rpms and a good windage tray and crank scrapper, installed in a baffled oil pan, go a long way toward better oil control. a decent 7-8 quart rated oil pan with 6-7-8 quarts in it with a well designed windage tray and baffles will maintain oil pressure.
looking at the pictures suggests you should be fine, but I always suggest use of an oil windage screen minimum
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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MIL-32255/?rtype=10
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the high temp magnets tend to stay right where they are placed, in a steel oil pan, but youll need J&B weld in an aluminum oil pan application, in my experience PROVIDED you use the ones designed to function in the heat range they can tolerate, just be aware you don,t want them too close to swinging oil baffle door flaps in a baffled oil pan as they have been known to hold those swinging gates open or closed if placed in the wrong areas,
example,
If this is an oil pan with this oil control baffle wall installed ,with steel oil control baffle doors, placing a magnet above these baffle doors is almost sure to prevent them from closing or placing one below is a sure way to keep them locked closed, thats one reason light weight ALUMINUM baffle doors are preferred,even in steel oil pans, the oil sloshing moves them, from open to closed as designed easily , limiting oil flow to movement in the direction desired, and magnets don,t tend to limit movement
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read related threads
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=64

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=65

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1800
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LSI/LS6 OIL ROUTING THRU BLOCK

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BTW a contour gauge makes fabricating an effective oil scrapper far easier, and having it welded to the oil pans windage screen after careful fitting helps also. its not mandatory but its useful, the object of a crank scraper is of course to restrict oil leaving the pan by being dragged around with the counter weights , having a crank scrapper shears off the oil forcing it to drop into the sump, oil flowing across a windage screen surface tends to get thrown with centrifugal force thru the windage screen where it quickly drains into the sump.

http://www.amazon.com/General-Tool-833- ... B000E36098

http://www.amazon.com/Outset-QS71-Stain ... d_sbs_lg_6
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LOOKING AROUND FOR SOURCES OF CHEAP MATERIALS ,THATS a GREAT IDEA!
heres another source for materials that might be faster and cheaper, depending obviously on what your trying to build,
THESE LINKS ARE WORTH READING THRU
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=10490&p=44215#p44215

http://www.chevelles.com/techref/ScreenInstall.pdf

http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/baffle.htm

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=6491

http://www.milodon.com/oil-system/oil-pumps.asp

http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-74-t ... liability/

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles ... index.html
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: whats a windage tray do?

Postby grumpyvette » December 5th, 2008, 1:34 pm

Okay, A little background. I installed a "universal" crate engine a bout 3,500 miles ago. When I went to install it, I found the pan had been bent/damaged in transit. So, I bought a 1 piece pan gasket from Summit, along with their cheapo chrome pan.
Well, long story short, el cheapo not el sealo so well. I have a friend that had the same pan/problem.
So, while I am waiting on other parts for the car, I decide now is the time to install that new Milodon oil pan and new 1 piece gasket sitting in the garage. Why not, right? Well, meantime, my friend finds out, and donates a Milodon windage tray, and oil pump bulkhead. Why not? The pan is off. I re-torqued, the engine. All is good. So, I spend the better part of the 102* day installing the needed studs for said tray. Grumpyvette has been most kind to help with guidance.
Now the pictures, then the questions/problems. BTW, with the steering control valve already off, dropping the idler arm makes this pretty easy.
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heres a stock chevy windage tray , cheap and not as effective as the better aftermarket designs but still a noticable improvement over no windage tray


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a surge baffle tends to retain the oil near the oil pump pick-up when you slam on the brakes , if its not there oil surges forward away from the oil pump pick-up when you slam on the brakes, and the bearing oil pressure drops to near ZIP! when you hit the brakes in the lights at the end of a 1/4" mile

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Now the questions?
1)Look right so far?
2)Dipstick right place? It looks like the screen may deflect it down giving a false reading.
3)How the hell am I going to check the clearance?
4)The oil pump plate seems to be preventing the pan from setting forward enough to seal properly.
5)I will have to remove it all to install the gasket first. :thud:
6)Should I use the new pick-up? It is twice the size.
7)Am I dumb or what? (Glutton for punishment I am. This answer is optional, but probably the most answered).:laughing:
as a general rule as viscosity is reduced the effort required to pump the oil thru clearances is lower and the pressure reading on the gauge drops, thats not necessarily an indication of lower bearing protection, as thats generally a function of oil quality and its formula, and basic components used, in its design, and generally its increased flow rate increases bearing cooling

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READ THIS

http://www.chevelles.com/techref/ScreenInstall.pdf
when selecting oil,for your engine, thinner viscosity oils pump with less effort and transfer heat away from bearings and the valve train faster so within reasonable limits thinner oil provides better protection, but you MUST maintain adequate film strength naturally, keep in mind the gauge pressure indicates is mostly the result of RESISTANCE TO FLOW thru the engine bearing clearances
you don,t really care what it is cold but once its up to operational temperatures of about 200F -210F oil temp it should ideally be thick enough (HIGH ENOUGH VISCOSITY) to maintain about 15-20 PSI at idle and gain about 10 psi per 1000rpm up to about 60-65 psi, theres nothing gained if the pressures higher it just puts additional strain on the oil pump and cam gears
a high volume oil pump is generally only required if youve done extensive engine mods requiring increased oil flow rates, and ITS use requires a 6-8 qt baffled oil pan and a windage screen to operate correctly, pressure is a measure or resistance to flow, if youve done the mods to increase the flow rates like larger bearing clearances and lifter bore mods then a high volume pump makes sense and the load rates to run it drop significantly

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=52

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=615

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=65
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: whats a windage tray do?

Postby grumpyvette » December 5th, 2008, 1:35 pm

Now the questions?
1)Look right so far?


NO, the little surge plate under the pump base is wrong for that pan, discard it

2)Dipstick right place? It looks like the screen may deflect it down giving a false reading.

don,t worry in the slightest, pour in 5 quarts and look at where the oil level is, its fine

3)How the hell am I going to check the clearance?
clearances in the pictures seems fine, in the pictures,its hard to tell, but the windage screen should be 1/8" from the rotating assembly and the pick-up 3/8"-1/2" from the pan floor
4)The oil pump plate seems to be preventing the pan from setting forward enough to seal properly.

see answer #1, its that stupid surge baffle 90% of the time5)
I will have to remove it all to install the gasket first.

6)Should I use the new pick-up? It is twice the size.

either pick-up can be used just make sure its between 3/8" and 1/2" from the pan floor, a lump of model clay stuck to the lower surface of the pick-up with the pan temp installed, measure the clay after removing the pan, then if necessary make adjustments, only once its correct BRAZE the pickup after temp removing the spring.
silver soldering is basically lower temp brazing , the soldering metal flows over the surface and into micro cracks in the surface of the other metal forming a almost un-removable bond to the other metals surface it allows you to stick iron to steel or brass to steel, it works more or less like normal solder does on copper but at higher temps and has a much stronger grip in addition too working on iron and steel



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7)Am I dumb or what? (Glutton for punishment I am. This answer is optional, but probably the most answered).QUOTE]

this HOBBY is DESIGNED for RICH masochists.........IVE got it 1/2 right, now I just need to get RICH!: for the other part

"Is it worth cutting down, or just trash it?"

trash it, the benefits are small to non-existent,in your application, the windage screen will do most of the oil control

silver solder is fine?

silver solder or brazing is fine? once your 100% sure the clearances are correct


http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Small-Blo ... layId=5083

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if your installing a high volume oil pump you really need a high volume baffled oil pan and a windage screen combo to match.
just be sure to order the correct pan with the dip stick on the correct side and designed for your engines style of rear seal, as those features changed over the years


this is a factory produced hamberger oil pan but its a decent example of what can be fabricated

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TEL: (562) 921-0404
http://www.hamburgersperformance.com/

other options


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WELL DESIGNED AND PROPERLY INSTALLED BAFFLED OIL PANS,WINDAGE TRAYS AND CRANK SCRAPERS GO A LONG WAY TO INCREASING ENGINE DURABILITY THRU BETTER MORE CONSISTENT OIL FLOW RATES

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http://www.stefs.com/products/oilpans/supergascompstreetpans.htm

http://www.kevkoracing.com/wetsump_chevy.htm

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=11330

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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Posts: 14105
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Re: whats a windage tray do?

Postby grumpyvette » December 5th, 2008, 1:46 pm

CIRCLE TRACK MAG HAD THIS INFO

"Oil Pan Designs

Kick-outs are valuable because...


In terms of pan designs and their quality when it comes to racing, the standard stock pan is at the bottom of the evolutionary ladder. Narrow and rarely deep enough for adequate oil volume, a stock pan is typically-little more than a bucket that holds oil at the bottom of the block. In-the interest of keeping costs down, manufacturers rarely make an effort-to control oil. That may be fine for over-the-road cars, but it's-terrible for racing. That's why replacement pans are normally allowed,even in strictly Stock classes.

The most noticeable characteristic for most racing pans is a kick-out on the right side. A kick-out is an excellent way to provide greater volume inside the pan while minimizing the overall depth. A deep pan is a liability because it either hangs too low in the chassis (which creates the possibility of damaging the pan against the track surface), or it requires the engine to sit too high (which raises the car's center of gravity). Many race pans feature kick-outs on both sides, but in designs that use only a single kick-out, it is always on the right side. This allows the oil to remain in the kick-out as the car rolls through the turns, which helps keep it away from the crank.

Inside the pan, it is critical that there is a means to maintain oil around the oil pump pickup. In a stock pan, this is normally achieved by having a deep, narrow sump, but a racing pan--because of the kick-outs--normally has a wide bottom. As the car rolls through the turns, accelerates, and decelerates, it can be easy for the oil in the pan to slosh away from the pickup. If there is even an instant that the oil pump gets air instead of a steady supply of oil, it can be devastating to a race engine. The solution is to use a system of one-way gates that allows oil to flow toward the pickup and not away. This sounds simple, but there are specific locations and sizes for the gates that are incorporated in every good pan design that ensures the oil is always available at the pickup without piling up underneath the crank.

New racers often confuse scrapers and windage trays, but they perform quite different functions. At high rpm, oil tends to "rope" or wind around a crankshaft, causing big power losses. A scraper is a precisely shaped piece of sheet metal that normally attaches at the pan rail and uses narrow slots that allow the crank's counterweights to spin past without contacting the scraper. The scraper catches oil off the crank and allows it to drain into the bottom of the pan. A windage tray normally separates the crank from the pan sump almost completely. It allows what drains into the pan to access the sump (either through shaped louvers or a screen), but makes it difficult for that oil, once it is in the sump, to splash back onto the crank."

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you can easily build a better WINDAGE SCREEN AND CRANK SCRAPER COMBO than the universal ones you can purchase, but it takes careful measurement and fitting to both get it correctly clearanced (about 1/8" from the spinning rotating assembly)and make it work effectively,(push oil into the sump) the idea is to allow oil to flow easily into the sump , (and even have the spinning assembly push oil thru the screen)yet prevent the spinning crank from whipping the oil in the sump into a froth, failure to run a windage screen has little effect at very low rpms but at high rpm levels the spinning crank assembly can turn a good deal of the oil in the pan too froth and suck part of it back out of the sump, to travel along with and slow the spinning crank,something that's not good for the bearings and since it makes the rings work harder to control excess oil on the cylinder walls and takes extra hp to spin the crank its counter productive, you'll generally have fewer bearing failures if you run a baffled oil pan and a windage screen because you'll have more oil available at the oil pump pickup and less spinning with the crank and causing problems and eating hp.
Ive seen 5-7 hp gained thru the use of one and far fewer burnt bearings thru the use of BOTH the matched baffled oil pan and windage screen combo, the control of oil flow back to the pump and having an un interrupted supply is critical

http://www.billetfab.com/pans.htm

heres one way

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1281

http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/baffle.htm


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heres a better than stock design

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buy here
http://www.champpans.com/index.cfm?event=productdetail&id=93

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MIL%2D32100&autoview=sku

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=MIL%2D32260&autoview=sku

ok the basics,you want the oil level on the dipstick to indicate the oils about 1.5 inches up into the crank counter weights , on any new oil pan, maximum and just touching their lower edge is preferred, many guys use the lower edge of the main caps as a good compromise,your goal is to maintain the maximum possible volume of oil over the oil pump pick-up in the engines oil sump while preventing the spinning crank assembly from whipping oil in the sump into a froth or dragging oil around with its rotation in the crank case while efficiently directing return oil flow back into the sump for fast effective reuse. measurement on a BASICALLY STOCK non running engine, so you measure how far down the crank counter weights are below the oil pan rails, and mark the dipstick at the correct level when the pans off or you throw caution to the wind and take the manufacturers capacity as the true volume.
keep in mind a stock oil pan normally holds 4-5 quarts and a race oil pan holds 6-8 quarts so the oil level drops significantly more on a stock pan with its limited capacity when theres 2 quarts in the upper engine.
because once the engine starts it sucks about 2 quarts or more into the upper engine and you want to maintain a minimum of about 3 or more quarts around the oil pump pick up so even if the new pans rated at lets say 7 quarts a bit of measuring won,t hurt, , you don,t want the crank acting like a huge spinning oil pump impeller so you want to keep the oil level, both deep enough in the sump that the oil constantly covers the oil pump pick-up, even under hard acceleration and braking when the oil tends to slosh away from the pick-up, due to inertial forces and shallow enough that the spinning crank won,t act like the huge spinning oil pump impeller that it can potentially can be.
remember the goal is to maintain consistent oil pressure on the bearings and moving parts and oil flow rates that cool those parts without having the oil level high enough to cause a horsepower loss by pumping excessive oil around in the crank case
On a race engine you want the level to be at the lower edge of the windage screen on a non running engine, because once the engine starts it sucks about 2 quarts or more into the upper engine, leaving room for very effective oil shear into the sump, and less turbulence and oil foam in the oil pan. introducing oil with air foam into the bearings hurts durability
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heres a better than stock design

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those are counter productive goals unless your using a well designed baffled oil pan and a windage screen, because you really want to have both decent ground clearance and 6-8 quarts of oil in the system to cool and lubricate the engines moving components, the 6-8 quarts of oil needs to remain fairly close to the crank, due to the engine to road proximity so clearance can be an issue and theres only limited space to extend the sump out to the sides, so a windage screen is used to significantly reduce the influence of the spinning crank on the sumps oil reserve, over the oil pump pick-up as it shears off the spinning oil whipped around the crank case and directs it into the sump efficiently.
remember that the operating engine has about 2-2.5 quarts flowing thru the oil passages and flowing back thru the lifter gallery, and valve cover areas at higher rpms.

pans like this help isolate the oil from the crank

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notice the add mark is at the level of the windage screen lower edge which is ideal, but not required as the oil level drops about 1.5" in a running engine compared to a non-running engine

the combo of these two components, (a baffled pan with extra capacity kick outs and a windage screen) and an oil pan similar to this
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will provide better oil control
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http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=64&p=1394#p1394

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=52
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: whats a windage tray do?

Postby grumpyvette » December 14th, 2008, 11:58 pm

IVE NEVER had the slightest problem running a windage tray /screen durring a cam break in procedure, if you think about it, theres high pressure oil spraying from clearances, every place, that helps lube the cam, theres oil around the lifters, thrown from the rod bearings, cam bearings and main bearings, oil draining from the valve train and distributor, all getting whipped around by the spinning rotating assembly and that oil needs to get back to the sump.
NOW I POSTED THIS BEFORE BUT IT NEEDs REPEATING
ok look at it this way,what your trying to do here is keep an pressureized oil film on the surface of all the bearings to lube and cool them and have enough oil spraying from the rod and main bearing clearances to lube the cam and cylinder walls/rings. now a standard pump does a good job up to 5000rpm and 400 hp but above 6000rpm and 400hp the bearings are under more stress and need more oilflow to cool and because the pressure on the bearings is greater you need higher pressures to maintain that oilfilm.lets look at the flow verus pressure curve. [color:"red"] since oil is a liquid its non-compressable and flow will increase with rpm up to the point where the bypass circuit starts to re-route the excess flow at the point were the pressure exceeds the bypass spring pressure. but the voluum will be equal to the pumps sweep voluum times the rpm of the pump, since the high voluum pump has a sweep voluum 1.3-1.5 times the standard pump voluum it will push 1.3-1.5 times the voluum of oil up to the bypass cicuit cut in point,that means that since the engine bearings leakage rate increases faster as the rpms increase because the clearances don,t change but the bleed off rate does that the amount of oil and the pressure that it is under will increase faster and reach the bypass circuit pressure faster with the high voluum pump. the advantage here is that the metal parts MUST be floated on that oil film to keep the metal parts from touching/wearing and the more leakage points the oil flows by the less the voluum of oil thats available for each leakage point beyond it and as the oil heats up it becomes easier to push through the clearences.now as the rpms and cylinder preasures increase in your goal to add power the loads trying to squeeze that oil out of those clearances also increase. ALL mods that increase power either increase rpms,cylinder preasures or reduce friction or mechanical losses. there are many oil leakage points(100) in a standard chevy engine.
16 lifter to push rod points
16 pushrod to rocker arm points
32 lifter bores 16 x 2 ends
10 main bearing edges
9 cam bearing edges
16 rod bearing edges
2 distributor shaft leaks
1 distributor shaft to shim above the cam gear(some engines [/color] that have an oil pressure feed distributor shaft bearing.)
so the more oil voluum the better,(AS LONG AS ITS TOTALLY UNDER CONTROL ON BOTH THE PRESSURE AND RETURN/SCAVAGEING SIDES OF THE SYSTEM
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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: whats a windage tray do?

Postby grumpyvette » December 30th, 2008, 8:16 pm

windage trays or screens are used to prevent the spinning crank assembly from causing a good deal of the oil in the sump from being whipped into a froth by the spinning crank assembly, they act as a barrier to the cranks impeller effects on the oil in the oil pan sump,limiting the oil trapped, in an endless cycle or rotating with the crank, dragged along with the oil trapped between the spinning crank and block walls, yet they allow and even speed up the return of oil to the sump. that oil won,t supply the oil pump pick-up at high rpms if its still rotating with the crank and they also help shear off and return oil draining from the upper engine ,as it passes over the windage tray as it helps separate the oil to return faster to the sump for recirculation,reducing drag on the crank assembly, gains in hp of 4-5 hp with their use are common at high rpms and it also tends to reduce oil starvation issues

READ THRU THIS
http://www.chevelles.com/techref/ScreenInstall.pdf
32250
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THE "DIAMOND STRIPPER" WINDAGE TRAY
The most sophisticated windage tray available today! This exclusive Milodon design features hundreds and hundreds of small louvers that quickly scavenge oil from crankshaft rotation, but prevents reversion common to screen-type windage trays. This is a completely finished, gold irradiated part that does not require additional fitting. And it flat works! Extensive dynometers and on-track testing verifies that Milodon "Diamond Stripper" windage trays out-perform all other screen type trays on the market.
These trays will fit both the Small Block Chevy 350 and 400 main cap bolt pattern. They will also fit right and left hand dipstick engines, as when adjusted properly the dipstick will pass underneath the tray.


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32640, #32645

CRANKSHAFT SCRAPER
Additional "free" horsepower can be found by the installation of a crankshaft scraper. A scraper will remove any excess oil left on the crank & rods that the windage tray does not remove. Scraper requires fitting to individual crank and rod profile, as well as to engine stroke. Wiper should be fitted to within .045" from rods and .035" from crank counterweights. When installed, scraper is sandwiched between pan rail and block.
Small Block Chevy 32640 \


HEY GRUMPYVETTE,

What do the scrapers bolt to? The pan rails, what do they do?


they either bolt to the block,between the oil pan gasket and the pan or you can weld them to the oil pan rail, on the oil pan,most guys braze or J&B EPOXY THEM TO THE OIL PAN RAIL, no they don,t touch the rotating assembly, you place them and carefully trim them, during the engine assembly process, so that while you spin the rotating assembly the teeth miss the outer arc of the rotation by about 1/8" and they are placed on the side of the engine that sees the rotation upwards from the sump, the idea is to restrict oil flow from the sump following the spinning assembly around in the lower block, it helps skim away and restrict oil falling from the upper engine, to remain in the sump area of the oil pan, after the crank assembly sweeps it into the sump.
that way almost all the oil makes only a 100-250 degree trip around with the spinning crank a single time, before being forced back into the oil pan.


the combo of these two components and an oil pan similar to this
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will provide better oil control
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: whats a windage tray do?

Postby grumpyvette » March 3rd, 2011, 8:52 am

BTW heres an interesting article
http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles ... index.html
READ THIS THREAD ALSO
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187&p=11569#p11569
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This chart shows how oil levels can affect power. Using the stock pan designed to hold 4 quarts (so the system total is 5 quarts when the filter is included), we varied the oil levels to see how power was affected. As you can see, more oil created more windage problems.Unfortunately, 5 quarts is often too little oil to properly protect the engine under racing conditions. The oil is too easily overheated, and the potential for the oil pump to completely drain the pan is too high.Racing pans are normally designed to hold more oil so that this doesn't happen. Both the Champ pans we used are designed to hold at least 7quarts of oil. (For the sake of consistency, we used 5 quarts of oil as our baseline in all our tests no matter what pan we used.)

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This chart compares the stock pan to Champ's dual kick out pan with a windage tray. Notice how the differences become greater as rpm levels increase. Runs were made with both pans using 5 and 6 quarts of oil.With a quality racing oil pan, you can use more oil for better protection while still getting better performance from your engine.
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Working with Oil Windage
This chart was our big surprise over the two days we spent testing. We ran Champ's high-end single kick-out pan with and without the windage tray and were surprised to see the results were better without the tray.This, however, turned out to be a flawed test. With just 5 quarts of oil in the system, the pan alone could adequately protect the crankshaft from the oil with or without the pan. But use 7 quarts in the system,as the pans designed to do,and as we should have done, and put the engine in a car that's on a racetrack where the oil will slosh around, and the results will be much different.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: whats a windage tray do?

Postby grumpyvette » August 6th, 2011, 9:33 am

OBVIOUSLY the better custom oil pan supply dealers can provide you with a decent baffled aluminum wet or DRY SUMP oil pan if you've got enough extra cash
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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: whats a windage tray do?

Postby grumpyvette » August 18th, 2011, 6:16 pm

Tech Talk #74: The Oil Pan Paradox- Power or Reliability?
Category: Tech Talk —

It’s an article of faith among racers that there is “free” horsepower to be found in an engine’s oiling system. Reducing windage and cutting frictional losses can indeed improve engine performance. Unfortunately, the unintended consequences of these horsepower-enhancing techniques can be a loss of reliability, followed by a big repair bill.

The most powerful oil pan is not necessarily the best oil pan for a sportsman drag racing engine. In sportsman competition, the goal is a lubrication system that keeps oil in the sump, keeps the oil pump pickup submerged, and supplies solid, non-aerated lubricant to internal components. That sounds simple, but it isn’t.

Professional and sportsman racing engines have different lubrication needs because the requirements are very different. In an all-out category such as Pro Stock, Pro Mod, or Comp, every opportunity to improve performance must be pursued relentlessly. In sportsman categories that are contested with a dial-in or index, affordability, durability, and minimum risk are the highest virtues. For racers on a tight budget – which includes just about everyone these days – reliability must take precedence over horsepower.

Many of the power-producing oil pan designs were originally developed for dry-sump oil systems. Large volume pans with big kickouts are very effective in getting the oil away from the rotating assembly. However, this pan design can be a disaster in a wet-sump sportsman engine. There’s too much area for the oil to get spread out, and no number of baffles and dams is going to keep the oil pump pickup submerged under all operating conditions.

The vast majority of connecting rod and bearing problems are really oil supply problems. This doesn’t mean the amount of oil in the engine – it means the oil supply at the pickup and crankshaft bearings. If the crankshaft is black and the rod is broken, that’s a sure sign of an oiling problem.

I’ve often heard racers say, “I spun a bearing, but I had plenty of oil pressure.” Well, oil pressure is not necessarily a good indicator of oil system performance. If a bearing is damaged and the debris ends up in an oil passage, the oil pressure can actually increase even though the oil volume is dangerously reduced.

Insufficient lubrication often does the most damage during burnouts and shutdown. The oil pressure might drop after a burnout and then come right back up again – but every time the oil supply is interrupted even briefly, some irreversible damage is done. If a wet-sump engine has an oil pan with a full-length sump, it’s almost certain that the oil pressure is going to fall to zero during shutdown. In a race car equipped with an automatic transmission, the engine usually decelerates in gear – and while this is safer than shifting into neutral, the oil supply must remain constant as the engine slows down under load. Any damage caused by a loss of oil pressure is cumulative; bearings don’t repair themselves.

A simple experiment will show the effects of acceleration and deceleration on the oil supply in a wet-sump oil pan. Put four or five quarts of solvent in the pan to simulate the hot oil. Then tilt the pan forward and backward at a 45-degree angle and watch what happens to the liquid. That’s the equivalent of 1 g deceleration and acceleration – a race car may produce even higher g loads. If the pan doesn’t have a defined sump and baffles to control the surge, there will probably be very little liquid around the oil pump pickup.

We’ve simulated the effects of deceleration on a wet-sump oil system on our dyno by angling the front of the engine downward. While this doesn’t precisely duplicate the conditions under hard deceleration, it does allow us to see whether the oil pressure remains steady during a power sweep. Through such experiments we’ve learned that vertical fences around the pickup definitely help to stabilize the oil supply. We’ve also tested a new Moroso wet-sump oil pump with a horizontal shield above the pickup that measurably improves the consistency of the oil supply. In fact, we are seeing only 5 psi variation in oil pressure during a sweep from 5,500 to 7,800 rpm.

In addition to lubrication, oil also plays an important role in engine cooling. In some endurance racing engines, the top end is flooded with oil to cool the valve springs. Our Pro Stock engines were equipped with oil squirters targeted at the valve springs. But these techniques are best left to dry-sump oil systems. It’s not necessary to have excessive oil in the top end on a typical wet-sump drag racing engine that doesn’t exceed 8,000 rpm and doesn’t overwork the valve springs with extreme lift.

Oil return is also important. The oil has to be able to get from the cylinder heads back to the pan. Some aftermarket cylinder head designs trap a lot of oil under the rocker covers. Engines equipped with these heads need external drains to provide a path for the oil to return to the pan.

While Pro Stock and Comp motors use extremely low-viscosity oil to reduce parasitic losses, my advice to sportsman racers is to use 10W-30 or 15W-50 oil. This multi-weight oil is less expensive and it’s better suited to the requirements of a typical sportsman engine. I also strongly recommend using an off-road oil with a good high-pressure additive package. The oil refiners have virtually eliminated zinc and sulfur in street oils to meet government regulations. Unfortunately these additives contribute to the oil’s film strength, and they are essential for any engine with a flat-tappet cam and stiff valve springs. I also recommend off-road oil for engines with roller cams – we’ve seen rapid wear in pushrod tips and other highly loaded areas in engines lubricated with street oil.

Oil pressure in a typical big-block sportsman engine should be 60 to 75 psi, depending on the displacement and operating speed. An engine with a short-stroke crankshaft usually doesn’t need as much oil pressure as an engine with a long crankshaft stroke. I’m certainly not an expert on hydrodynamics, but it appears that the increase in centrifugal force and the angle of the oil feed holes in the crankshaft account for the higher oil pressure that’s needed in a long-stroke engine.

Lubrication is critical in any racing engine. For most sportsman racers, the risk of running a low-windage oil system simply isn’t worth the meager reward in performance.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: whats a windage tray do?

Postby grumpyvette » October 16th, 2013, 10:04 am

How do I know how much oil I need in the oil pan?
its a good question and in most cases
I FIND THE AVERAGE GUY FAILS TO THINK IT THRU! or take the time to actually measure where the oil level is when the dip stick indicates its full.
Im amazed at the number of guys who have never looked at the dipstick having it inserted , in the engine to look at the full mark with the oil pan removed to see where that oil level actually is in relation to the oil pan and rotating assembly

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you obviously need to maintain consistent oil flow and pressure to the bearings and other moving components, and both the engines stroke and oil pan capacity and design obviously effect the way the spinning rotating assembly will act on the oil returning to the sump, and how the oil in the sump is effected by the spinning rotating assembly, imply due to the proximity of that spinning rotating assembly to the oil covering the oil pump pick-up.
theres about 1.2-2 quarts constantly flowing thru most chevy engines in the oil passages, lifter gallery and cylinder heads (upper engine) during high rpm operation, so you have that much less in the oil pan sump.
if your oil level is too high it can cost you significant horse power at higher rpms, get it too low and engine temps and durability suffer
as a general rule you have road clearance issues limiting the oil pan depth and factors like frame and header clearance issues limiting the oil pans width, so you usually will be limited to a 6qt-8 quart oil pan capacity due to those factors.
you can add capacity with an auxiliary oil cooler and remote oil filters, or even more with an accumulator pressurized oil pressure reserve.
but your basic system should be set up so that the oil level is no higher than the lower edge of the windage tray seated in the oil pan, as any oil trapped above that level tends to ad drag to the spinning assembly
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READ THESE
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1280&p=2741#p2741

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=1518&p=22252&hilit=preforated#p22252
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: whats a windage tray do?

Postby 87vette81big » October 16th, 2013, 8:42 pm

Grumpy what do you prefer for a windage tray ?
The bolt on main bearing cap style ?
Welded into oil pan ?
Louvered ?
Or Diamond screen style( Old time Pontiac guys like me called them Ray Trays) . ?

I always used a windage tray on my Pontiac V8 engines. The early1965-69 Full length style.
Drilled a half dozen 1/2" extra drain holes in bottom at 6'Oclock position.

My 1965 Olds 425 never was built with a windage tray.
No Olds engine ever was stock.
Milodon makes a 400-425-455 Olds BB windage tray louveted style only.
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Re: whats a windage tray do?

Postby 87vette81big » October 16th, 2013, 8:46 pm

Are there any Small Block Chevy weld in windage trays I can use on my stock Olds 425 oil pan?
Custom oil pans made. Don't want to spend $500-$1k though.
$100 or less. I weld & fabricate myself.

Thanks.

Brian
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Re: whats a windage tray do?

Postby grumpyvette » October 17th, 2013, 9:21 am

I think you might find READING THRU these links very useful

http://www.chevelles.com/techref/ScreenInstall.pdf


a 36"x 40" aluminum perforated sheet like this, that costs about $40-$60 will provide windage screens and shrapnel for 3 engines, thats an option, if your semi skilled at fabrication, that beats the crap out of buying $300 plus worth of milodon screens that don,t work as well in my experience as a carefully fabricated custon screen will

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mil-32260/overview/


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aluminum-Perfor ... 5af09e4d05
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: whats a windage tray do?

Postby 87vette81big » October 17th, 2013, 9:41 am

Thanks Grumpy.
The Milodon Windagetray Louvored style for an Olds V8 is affprdable. $60.00 Summut Racing.
Just you have to purchase main studs to use it.
I prefer factory main cap bolts 90% of the time.
Proven in Dart BBC 2000HP builds to work just fine also.

Oil control important in any engine.
Fast oil drainback real important in Poncho 421, 428, & 455. Pontiac engines in my experience.
Moving lots of oil at 100-120psi Hot pressure in my past builds.

3" Inch mains on the 1965 Olds 425.
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Re: whats a windage tray do?

Postby grumpyvette » October 17th, 2013, 10:27 am

Rick_L wrote:...

The only way you "pump the pan dry" is to block the drainback from the heads. Which is a separate defect and can just as easily occur with a standard pump.

RICK-L IS CORRECT, SMOKEY YUNICK HAD OIL PANS WITH CLEAR PLASTIC PANELS MADE, HIGH SPEED PHOTOGRAPHY DONE AND ENGINES RUN AT HIGH RPMS FOR LONG PERIODS TO TEST THIS

pumping the pan drys a myth in a properly set up chevy, hot oil drains from the upper engine faster than its pumped up there,the highest volume of oil flow exits the bearings,IN THE LOWER ENGINE AREAS and in a properly set up engine its rapidly swept into the sump, aided by a windage screen
here are many oil leakage points(100) in a standard Chevy engine.
16 lifter to push rod points
16 push rod to rocker arm points
32 lifter bores 16 x 2 ends
10 main bearing edges
9 cam bearing edges
16 rod bearing edges
2 distributor shaft leaks
1 distributor shaft to shim above the cam gear(some engines that have an oil pressure feed distributor shaft bearing
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I found these pictures that might be useful also
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IF I build a custom fabricated windage screen, I would VASTLY PREFER to build a custom fitted windage screen fabricated from the slotted /perforated sheet but looking a bit like this one pictured above, fitted to cover as much of the rotating assembly rotational arc as clearances allow and fitted to be about 1/10"-1/8TH inch outside its rotational arc
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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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