building a custom wet sump oil pan



building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » September 17th, 2008, 11:00 am

The question comes up rather frequently when I suggest buying or modifying oil pans as to "WHY BOTHER?" well its simply the fact that most stock oil pans were designed simply to be the cheapest to manufacture component that would function on an engine that would rarely be spinning over 3500rpm. IF YOU HAVE PRICED A WELL DESIGNED CUSTOM OIL PAN FOR MANY CARS YOU'LL BE SHOCKED AT THE DIFFERENCE IN COST THAT THE BETTER OIL PAN DESIGNS COMMAND!
yes if you shop carefully you may find a bargain, as the prices and features , and quality of fit and finish,vary a great deal between manufacturers, and keep in mind your not limited to what you can purchase, across the counter at the local speed shop or thru mail order, theres the option to custom fabricate or modify existing components to exactly fit your application.
youll frequently find that a decent price on a 6-7-8 quart baffled oil pan with your idea of the ideal capacity and road clearance is rather hard to locate and many times guys just don,t have the $400-$600 THAT THE BETTER QUALITY OIL PANS COST OVER THE COUNTER.
yes theres almost always some oil pans listed for the more common cars for under $100, but they may not provide the capacity or baffling you may desire.
now I build several engines a year for myself or close friends and many of us own corvettes, which have generally minimal road clearance issues and can seldom use an oil pan deeper than about 7.5" and 7" is the preferred max sump depth, this limits choices when you want a minimum of 6-7 quart capacity.
well, you BOTHER to modify an oil pan because a constant dependable supply of pressurized, comparatively cool oil, flowing over , and lubricating the moving surfaces of your engine is mandatory to maintaining its continuing dependable function, and durability, failure to maintain adequate pressurized oil flow results in rapid wear and parts failure the basic design of the stock oil pan,was never intended to be ideal on an engine producing significantly more horsepower or spinning at significantly higher rpms or once subjected to high lateral inertial loads that performance use of a car and, use of a baffled high capacity oil pan with a windage screen, makes mandatory, if durability is important. a high performance engine requires a much different set of operational conditions to be considered to be incorporated into its design, first is the obvious higher average operational rpm, power band which will require a windage tray so oil will not be constantly carried around inside the lower engine block with the spinning rotating assembly , and beat to a froth, next will be baffle to prevent inertial loads from uncovering the oil pump pick-up under hard braking,acceleration and lateral side loads , that would allow oil in an UN-baffled oil pan to slosh away from the oil pump pick-up, dropping oil pressure, next is generally several extra quarts of capacity to help insure both cooling and supply under high rpm loads

http://www.enginelabs.com/news/canton-r ... e-secrets/
Id also point out two very common mistakes made are the failure to carefully measure clearances and ask questions about what will fit and what won,t fit, for example most headers are designed to fit with the stock oil pans, and may not fit correctly with every custom oil pan, so verify your headers fit before spending $450-$600 on a custom oil pan, or , $1200 on headers that may not clear that new custom oil pan, or find out if either component might require a remote mount oil filter location, or inquire if the oil pan or headers require a mini starter, in short do some research home work, don,t assume everything will fit every application, and yes a bit of custom cutting and fabrication skill, and careful welding can and does frequently make fitting a high capacity baffled oil pan with custom headers workable where lack of the ability to modify an oil pan may prevent their use together, having the ability to custom fabricate and modify parts is near mandatory in this hobby
a custom oil pan design is USUALLY not really about the amount of oil ,it holds as much as controlling the rapid return of oil to the sump so its constantly covering the oil pump pick-up.correctly designed baffles route the oil flow directly to the oil pump pick-up and restrict oil flow away from the oil pump, under inertial loads like hard braking that could starve the pump of oil without the baffles controlling oil flow
just some info, you might need,
depending on the oil pump used, rpms and clearances a chevy V8 will generally push some where between 2 and 6 gallons a minute thru the oil passages, your average oil pan sump holds at most 3 quarts ,while the engines running, and theres generally about 2 or a bit more quarts in the upper engine, (lifter gallery, heads)while the engines running, so when you induce high inertial loads is common for the oil pump pick up to become uncovered even in a baffled oil pan for a few seconds as that 2-3 quarts in the sump slams forward and back in the sump, because remember , lets say your engines only pumping 3 gallons a minute, and theres got to be at least 2 quarts in the sump to keep the oil pump pick-up covered under high inertial loads, its only going to take a few seconds at most under those conditions to suck air into the oil pump. obviously having a baffled 7-8 quart oil pan has advantages under those conditions as theres a good deal larger (SAFETY MARGIN) in the amount of oil present over the oil pump pick-up is you use the higher capacity BAFFLED oil pan with its better oil control and larger sump capacity,, windage screen combo, adding an oil cooler and a larger oil filter can add significant oil capacity.
crank case pressure and oil control issues are not necessarily the same issue.
crank case pressure is usually the result of blow bye or cylinder pressure getting by the ring seal,on the power or compression strokes, ring design,piston design, cylinder wall prep, use of a deck plate while honing the bores and correct installation all effect ring seal.
but oil control issues can easily be aggravated or even caused by not having a correctly designed baffled oil pan, windage tray and crank scraper in a high rpm engine.or by improperly installed gaskets. REMEMBER the object or goal in building and maintaining the lubrication system is too maintain a 100% dependable pressurized cooling flow of lubricant to the bearings, rockers,valves etc.one more in an endless list of reasons that owning a welder and having learned a few sheet metal fabrication skills is a huge asset in this sport/hobby.
most of us are not rich, and while its easy to spend money and it takes time and effort and some skill to fabricate theres also a good deal of satisfaction in knowing you have built custom components for your car that meet or exceed most of whats out there available to purchase.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Small-Blo ... ,3512.html

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway- ... ,3509.html
[b]most of the time Ill start with a fairly cheap pan like this and just add several quarts of additional sump capacity and a windage screen

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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTR-15-240/

WELDING INFO HERE
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1283

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=117

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=1458&p=22845&hilit=magnets+screens#p22845

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/cc ... an_baffle/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCQN23Txc7w

http://www.billetfab.com/wp-content/upl ... atalog.pdf

http://dickmillerracing.com/images/Cran ... irdles.pdf

http://pitstopusa.com/i-5069643-canton- ... stick.html

Ive got a custom built 10 quart oil pan on my 383. similar to this canton oil pan, Im retired on a fixed income, but have the tools, skills and time so I custom made a decent oil pan,
I basically took my stock pan , cut the lower 3" off the sump off and custom made an extended sump similar to this oil pan a friend had purchased but I extended the sump forward to within 1.3" of the front K member,and 7.5" deep thus increasing capacity, but making it a P.I.T.A. to remove the engine with the oil pan still attached,
its amazing what you can fabricate with a decent TIG welder and use of poster board and duct tape as a pattern, you can purchase sheet steel very cheaply, and I have a better oil pan than the $300-$500 designs, at under $200

I usually used 8 quarts of 10w30 mobile 1 and a quart of MARVEL MYSTERY OIL in my engine, but lately the cost of synthetic oil has increased so much that, I swapped to VALVOLINE , so I now use 10W30 Valvoline VR1 as its rated a bit better and its a bit cheaper, and with about $76 an oil change even at the lower cost ....

READ THE LINKS
http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=65

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=64

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=8937&p=31791#p31791

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3536

now youll need a few tools, but you can do a great deal with a decent set of tin snips a die grinder and a set of hammers and dollys for working metal and having several extra old oil pans to use as a source of pre-bent metal can sure help
[/b], and this is one area a 110 volt mig may be a good choice, but ID prefer TIG.
make patterns from poster board and tape as its far easier to correct that material or make mods to the design patterns with tape and scissors, and measure carefully, fold, tape and trial fit the card board patterns before cutting and transferring the correct tested and finished pattern to sheet steel. remember to measure for oil filter, header and frame clearance and oil pump pick-up placement, connecting rod and dip-stick clearance,etc. and road clearance and remember to allow easy access to the oil pan mount bolts
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http://www.harborfreight.com/7-piece-bo ... 31277.html
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http://www.harborfreight.com/30-inch-sh ... -5907.html
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http://www.welders-direct.com/merchant2 ... ode=907335

30 cal ammo cans are about 6" tall 10"wide and 3.5" deep

50 cal ammo cans are about 6.5" tall 11"wide and 5.5" deep

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theres roughly 58 cubic inches in a quart, ,so a 30 cal can in theory holds an additional 3.5 quarts of oil capacity
and a 50 cal ammo can welded into a sump, if its full depth is used in theory adds 6.5 quarts if its full capacity is utilized, knowing things like this, is why owning a good MIG or TIG welder and having fabrication skills is a worth while skill and tool set to acquire


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IVE purchased two-to-six of these 30 cal ammo cans several times as a cheap source of heavy gauge steel to cut and modify into a custom made oil pan sumps , careful measurements a good band saw and a TIG OR MIG welder, plus a couple old oil pans, some perforated 1/16" steel sheet, some small steel hinges, to practice on, and lots of pictures to get ideas from, can go a long way to improving your skill at improving both your welding and saving you a good deal of cash on custom fabricated baffled oil pans, ideally you can make it difficult for oil in the sump to flow away from the oil pump in the sump as the car accelerates and brakes but allow oil to easily flow to the oil pump,
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WITH CORRECTLY DESIGNED BAFFLES AND GATES OIL FLOW UNDER ACCELERATION AND BRAKING AND TURNS IS CONTROLLED AND DIRECTED TO THE OIL PUMP
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viewtopic.php?f=60&t=4232

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=1594

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=72

http://www.custompartnet.com/wu/sheet-metal-forming

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=2982&p=7832&hilit=plazma#p7832

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=120&p=150#p150

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2094&p=5620&hilit=plazma#p5620

If your engine has several breathers and your leaking oil its most likely an oil control or gasket issue, best addressed with a 7-8 quart baffled oil pan, windage screen and crank scraper, tall cast valve covers and isolated breathers that will control oil return flow back to the sump in the engine.
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now if your engine rarely sees the high side of 3500rpm this is basically not a big issue for most applications, but if you regularly spin an engine over 6000rpm this can frequently be something youll want to look into as oil control becomes far more important.
IF your having oil control or blow-bye issues you might want to do a leak down test to verify your ring seal and bore condition, and think about a decent baffled 7-8 quart, road racing oil pan design and running 6 quarts of oil,as that puts a good deal less stress on the oil control and having the oil drains holes in the heads and block checked for restrictions won,t hurt either.

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ADDING A WELL DESIGNED WINDAGE SCREEN SPEEDS OIL RETURN SPEEDS . AND EFFICIENCY TO THE ENGINE SUMP

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running an engine like this picture above ,with just an open oil pan, tends to waste 4-8 hp or more at higher rpms and may over load the rings with oil on the cylinder walls, and cause the bearings to get intermittent oil pressure
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viewtopic.php?f=54&t=64

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2207

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4578

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3536

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187
youll ALWAYS want to shop around and ask lots of questions before you purchase an oil pan, find out the capacity, depth and if it fits your cars frame/suspension, and if theres any headers or starters that are required or that won,t fit with the oil pan, verify the correct oil pump and pick-up part numbers, verify all the clearances.
BEFORE ORDERING,remember , oil pans even on SBC engines vary with year and application,theres right and left hand dip stick blocks and one and two piece rear seals
and you have the option if you can weld thin sheet steel or aluminum , you can do what I do, buy one of the pans below, and modify it , for a C4 corvette ,at the MINIMUM your need to cut the front lower edge lower corner ,1" wide at a 45 degree angle, and re-weld in a plate so it clears the front cross member, on some pans.
EXAMPLE
heres a basic choice, on the midwestmotorsportsinc.com pan,
http://www.midwestmotorsportsinc.com/in ... parent=277

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drivers side dipstick
http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categoryd ... code=11330
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the cantons a bolt-in deal, now I also extended the sump forward until it was within 3" of the front of the oil pan, to increase the capacity to 10 qts, remember you want to keep the sumps oil level in the running engine well below the windage screen lower edge and a closely fitted crank scraper, and the correct internal baffles in the oil pan, helps with the oil control issues
another good example of why a shop welder is so valuable, you can build a decent oil pan for under 1/2 the price you can buy one for:thumbsup: :D [b]

http://www.midwestmotorsportsinc.com/order_part.php?item=15120K&line=MWM


read
http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles ... index.html

OR

http://canton.carshopinc.com/product_info.php/products_id/12123/11-120?osCsid=1864652061e9b34e7648e188bb985ecf
Canton Oil Pans
11-120 and 11-120T Oil Pans
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http://www.jegs.com/p/JEGS-Performance- ... 4/10002/-1

http://www.jegs.com/SizeCharts/555-OilPanChart.html
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theres a great deal of related info in these threads
http://www.livermoreperformance.com/can ... _pans.html


viewtopic.php?f=54&t=52

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=150

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=615

http://www.chevelles.com/techref/ScreenInstall.pdf

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=206&p=242&hilit=+gasket+synthetic#p242

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2080

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=206&p=242&hilit=+gasket+synthetic#p242


you don,t need to spend big bucks on a baffled road racing oil pan if you can weld , measure and fabricate, keep in mind a higher capacity baffled oil pan and windage screen are good insurance against oil related problems.
on a CORVETTE the ground to lower block clearance better not exceed 7.5" with 7.25 being better and 7" about ideal for road clearance, but be aware that factors like the suspension, K-MEMBER and other under car obsticals unique to that model will influence your selection and so will your stroke and windage tray height or main caps so ASK QUESTIONS BEFORE you buy I GENERALLY BUY A DECENT CIRCLE TRACK DESIGN PAN then MODIFY it to the application,as its far easier than starting from scratch, adding or moving the sump,baffles etc. [b] BTW you can use tape and poster,cardboard to mock up ideas and potential changes, and use as patterns when folding the sheet steel you actually use in the oil pans modification, but be sure to work with the starter exhaust and suspension clearances being checked frequently,and access to the pan bolts in mind,
these circle track pans generally make an excellent starting point, and these guys are great to deal with
the minimum sump depth, its far faster to modify a circle track style pan as a starting point, but you can start with any pan, use cardboard to make a pattern first then cut and fold the sheet steel later using the pattern after you verify it clears all the k-members,starters, filters etc

if your over heating the oil,first suggestion swap to a decent synthetic oil in the 10w30 range or at least the thinnest viscosity that maintains 20 psi at hot idle temps, as SYNTHETICS don,t generally start breaking down until about 280F PLUS while mineral base oils tend to start degrading after repeated 250F use, and the thinner the oil the faster it circulates thru the clearances, and the faster heats absorbed and transferred out off the hotter components
and Id need to know more about the complete engine parts list, clearances, etc. but Id sure want to verify the fuel/air ratio is at about 12.6:1 not alot leaner and your ignition timing was carefully checked to not be a couple degrees advanced from ideal., and that your running a 7-8 quart oil pan, heres the oil cooler I use and I had to install a thermal switch or it OVER COOLED my engine oil in FLORIDA where average outside air temps closer to 90F

my oil pan looks vaguely similar to this,you should be looking for a 7"-7.5" max pan depth on a C4 corvette

http://canton.carshopinc.com/product_info.php/products_id/12123/11-120?osCsid=1864652061e9b34e7648e188bb985ecf
Canton Oil Pans
11-120 and 11-120T Oil Pans
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but I extended the sump forward until it was 3" from the front of the pan with 14 ga steel and a tig welder to add about 4 inches extra to the sump to get 10 qt capacity, naturally a custom sump requires you to measure for header and suspension clearances, don,t forget to leave access for the oil filter and starter
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRM-1 ... mage=large


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http://www.midwestmotorsportsinc.com/order_part.php?item=7101R&line=WYS

http://www.midwestmotorsportsinc.com/order_part.php?item=15120&line=MWM


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keep in mind the oil pump and pick up take up some of that volume , and that in a running engine theres about 2 quarts in the upper engine in the heads, oil passages,lifter galley etc. not counting the oil filter which could hold an additional quart plus in some cases
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for example on my vette I needed to cut and weld a patch of a 1" wide 45 degree bevel on the front lower edge, as the pans orriginal lower front edge hit the k-frame , the sump to clear the K-MEMBER clearance needed that mod. and I extend the sump forward 4",added baffles and add a second side sump, to get to the 10qt volume I wanted in my race engine


heres a factory version for $240 without the forward extended sump but with the side sump, keep in mind your times worth something, but you can build a decent racing oil pan for under $120 vs $240 for the smaller capacity factory version
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http://www.midwestmotorsportsinc.com/order_part.php?item=CP100LT&line=MWM


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first gen small block oiling
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LSI/LS6 OIL ROUTING THRU BLOCK

BEST NOT AS A BEGINNERS FIRST WELDING PROJECT , BUT IF YOU HAVE SOME EXPERIENCE AND SKILL ITS FAR FROM DIFFICULT, be sure to weld while the pans mounted to the block if you can to minimize warping due to heat distortion
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MOR%2D21950&N=700+0&autoview=sku

Moroso 21950

http://www.qmpracing.com/qmpcatalog/product_info.php?products_id=15879

READ
http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-74-t ... liability/

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BTW
http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81091

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=10490&p=44215#p44215

BTW HERES AN IMPORTANT TIP, IF YOUR INSTALLING A REMOTE OIL COOLER,IT is really common for guys to use lines that are far to small, that restrict flow oil flow or select a transmission or oil cooler that has to small of internal passages, shop carefully you want a MINIMUM of 1/2, or AN8 line size and 5/8" or AN10 is BETTER
think about it, your measuring the oil pressure in most cases AFTER its been thru the cooler and returned to the oil passages in the block, oil leaves the oil pump and its routed to the oil filter where the oil filter adapter routes it thru the oil cooler and back to the adapter then into the block, your measuring the restricted oil flow after its returned to the block, if the lines or cooler passages restrict oil flow its potentially a problem for lubrication of the moving parts if pressure or oil volumes reduced
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Last edited by grumpyvette on September 21st, 2008, 1:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » September 17th, 2008, 11:01 am

Mid seventies small block, drivers side dipstick. Dipstick runs into Milodon " Diamond Stripper" windage tray, has no hope of measuring oil level. Even without the windage tray in place, the dipstick runs into the main cap stud.

Threaded rod used for illustrating purposes only.

READ THIS

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=1518&p=3473&hilit=preforated#p3473

http://www.chevelles.com/techref/ScreenInstall.pdf


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just carefully bend the lower end of the CURVED dipstick tube extension that you fabricate and insert into the block so it directs the dip stick down parallel to the inner oil pan wall, into the pan exactly where you want it to go.(yeah! that DOES usually require a small 1/2" wide notch about 3/4" deep in the lower windage screen edge to be carefully cut for clearance)
a bit if custom fitting is usually required but its neither difficult or beyond being done with common hand tools

in some applications adding an oil accumulators a good idea
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BELOW SOME IDEAS ON OIL PAN DESIGNS
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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » September 17th, 2008, 11:03 am

"i have a question, how do you know your new oil capacity with a custom pan?"

GOOD QUESTION,
with a simple answer
stick the stock dip stick that came with the stock oil pan into the block, once the new higher capacity oil pans been installed and start pouring in oil till the oil levels the same ,while keeping count of the quarts used so you know the level of the oil in the pans the same from the blocks lower edge remains the same, when you temporarily install the oil pan with the windage screen in place and fill the pan use an empty quart bottle from your last oil change, count the number of quarts, WRITE THE TOTAL DOWN,THATS your new capacity, remember the true oil level while the engine runs will be about 1"-2" lower as theres about one and one half too two quarts in the upper engine at any time while it runs, so the working levels below the windage screen,and the oil filter should also contain some volume as the oil passages fill and pressurize so the windage screen never has oil sitting in it while the engines running
once youve installed the new oil pan and filled it with the correct amount of oil and before you start the engine,if youve got a different dipstick, insert your dipstick and mark it at that oil level.


my first suggestion would be to test fit the O.E.M, oil pan in the car , sit in it and have a friend measure the sump/road clearance,then try to come close to duplicating that road clearance, IE, a wider or longer sump adds capacity as does a slightly deeper sump but you need to maintain reasonable road clearance,as its been my experience that as an example a 9" sump won,t come near to having the 3.5"-4" of sump to road clearance, necessary for safe driving in a corvette ,but it may be fine in a chevelle, etc. theres zero sense in going further if you can,t use the oil pan in the application.
once youve found you do have the necessary clearance between the road,your oil filter,the starter , your headers, etc. just measure the dipstick by adding a minimum of 6 qts and marking it where the oil level is on the dipstick with a small groove (jewelers file)

BTW if you don,t have a lbs of modeling clay for checking clearances in engines
get a pound it comes in handy, youll want the oil pan pick-up to be 3/8"-1/2" above the oil pan floor



BTW oil pan rails are flimsy on some oil pans
ID check the oil pan rails are not bent/warped and if you need to use some black silicone sealant, but Ive never yet had that be necessary, most leaks are the result of EITHER the gasket not being seated correctly or over tightening the bolts bending oil pan.

you might want to Use with P/N 12553058 RH and P/N 12553059 LH oil pan reinforcement plates to distribute the bolt stress on the oil pan rail for 1985 and earlier oil pans P/N 14088501 (LH) and P/N 14088502 (RH).1986 and newer

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2376

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1800
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » September 17th, 2008, 11:07 am

having some skills ,a few hours with a decent welder, some poster board and tape for a pattern and some 14 ga sheet steel are about all thats keeping that pan you have from holding 7-9 qt capacity

http://atbending.thomasnet.com/viewitem ... &forward=1

one of my more creative friends buys two of these at the ,local mill surplus

http://www.armysurplusworld.com/product.asp?ProductID=921

and cuts and welds them into the sides of stock oil pans after careful measurement for clearance to headers,starter, frame etc, to form two extended horizontal side sump extensions that save him some welding time, he says you can,t buy the steel alone for that price let alone get the sump partly pre-welded

but theres good deals available if you don,t weld, and don,t have a stock oil pan to start with as a base

http://www.midwestmotorsportsinc.com/order_part.php?item=7101R&line=WYS

but TAKE the time to mock it up and measure clearances carefully with the engine,exhaust, starter, oil filter, etc in the car to prevent having to make extensive mods after you start
BTW you can BUY weld on BUNGS in most pipe thread sizes and place them where you want on the oil pan sump

http://www.jegs.com/p/Russell/762479/10002/-1/10019
http://www.racepartsolutions.com/products.asp?cat=107
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http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=329/prd329.htm

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theres plenty of epoxy based , high temp and oil resistant paints or coatings that can be used, you could even resort to powder coatings but Ive yet to see the need. and yes I usually paint the outside surfaces with a decent engine paint after sanding/grinding down the welds and useing J&B weld to smooth the outer surface of the weld and seal any potential pin holes in the welds so you have a very hard time seeing where its welded from looking over the outside surface.
I bought the TIG welder MOSTLY so I could get into fabricating aluminum components but I still find myself useing a oxy-acetolene torch most of the time and useing steel oil pans, simply because I usually start with an aftermarket STEEL oil pan as the base I start from, and then fabricate an extensive sump and baffles

THIS IS WORTH READING THRU
http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/baffle.htm

BTW if your just looking to buy vs build

other sources

http://www.kevkoracing.com/

http://www.stefs.com/stefsindex.htm

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorybrowse.asp?CatCode=11000

http://www.milodon.com/oil-pans/oil-pans-from-milodon.asp

http://www.billetfab.com/index1.htm

http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/

http://www.daymotorsports.com/product/1289/SBC-MODIFIED-%26-STREET-STOCK-WET-SUMP-PANS

http://www.daymotorsports.com/product/1833/SB_CHEVY_CIRCLE_TRACK_6-1%3A%3A2%22_OIL_PAN

http://www.billetfab.com/pans.htm

http://www.bakerengineeringinc.com/ProCam.html#wetsump

http://www.drysump.com/index1.htm
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » September 18th, 2008, 8:26 am

this is a factory produced hamberger oil pan but its a decent example of what can be fabricated
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not into fabricating?
heres a decent option
http://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi ... ey=11-102M

these guys also make good stuff

http://www.champpans.com/index.cfm?even ... tail&id=83

http://www.stefs.com/products/oilpans/c ... etsump.htm

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Small-Blo ... layId=5083
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if your installing a high volume oil pump you really need a high volume baffled oil pan and a windage screen combo to match.
just be sure to order the correct pan with the dip stick on the correct side and designed for your engines style of rear seal, as those features changed over the years


READ THRU THESE RELATED THREADS

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=52

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=64

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=64

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4576
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » October 20th, 2008, 4:24 pm

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » April 13th, 2009, 7:06 pm

most of you guys building custom wet sump oil pans might want a few tips and tricks,
the first thing youll learn while building a baffled high capacity oil pan is to think ahead and think things thru carefully, youll quickly learn the first step,is to install the stock pan securely to the block and do lots of careful test fittings as you progress, this takes time but doing it correctly rather than doing it fast is the only reasonable route to take and use of a majic marker on its exterior to locate and measure and mark areas around the pan that you can,t extend the sump into due to the frame, suspension, ground clearance or necessary room for frame braces, k-frames, starters, headers,oil filters etc.
mocking up mods with poster board and tapes saves alot of useless repeat welding, remembering that you need room for a wrench to reach the bolts or studs comes in handy in the long run and youll learn to weld seams on both sides in some cases and to tack weld skipping along or youll warp the pan.
youll also want to think thru the internal oil control issues, youll generally want to reduce the oils tendency to move away from the oil pumps pick-up under high (G) loads like braking or cornering and direct oil the windage screen strips from the spinning crank back too the rear pick-up area in the sump, think about that ,you'll generally want to avoid use of perforated steel in the forward upper pan as a horizontal baffle under the windage screen but perforated steel in the rear is in most cases ok, as the oil will fall thru easily but under high (G) loads its unlikely to go UP, and a swinging baffle door or two that are made from piano hinges covering flow ports that swing open under hard acceleration and closed under hard braking can be an asset in the design.
most internal baffles are designed with a row of 3/4" diam. holes closely aligned along the bottom of a barrier wall, so the hinge on the rear wall of the barrier flaps easily to the rear allowing oil in the forward area of the pans sump, too rush into the sump under hard acceleration but if oil rushing away from the sump swung the hinge forward due to rushing oil mass they cover holes in the baffle wall, trapping the oil around the oil pan pick up.
adding strong magnets in the rear of the sump is a good idea but use in trapping fine metallic dust but don,t get them near the swing baffle or they might reduce or delay or even prevent the smooth operation if the hinge flap is steel
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look very closely at the screen in the sump that acts like a windage screen, theres a full length solid floor over the sump itself under the front 2/3rds of the windage screen forming a roof over the sump it so oil thrown from the crank in the front 2/3rds drains to the rear , oil trapped in the rear can not climb the front sump up to the crank, and remains trapped until it flows rear ward.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » April 3rd, 2010, 11:08 am

if your into doing figure 8s and donuts while spinning the rear tires into smoke to impress your buddies and find the engine suddenly acts like its running out of fuel at higher rpms, well...
now this may or may not be the cause but its fairly common,
if your still using the stock oil pan the oil pressure sensor, located near your distributor, is designed too, and turns off the fuel pump if oil pressure drops below 5psi which will happen with the stock oil pan doing donuts as its not baffled and doesn,t have the required capacity, so it sucks air for an instant as the oils sloshed away from the oil pump pick-up, remember at high rpms, and under high side ways G-loads with the stock oil pan theres occasionally less than two quarts left in the oil pan as the oils trapped in the heads and lifter galley by those g-forces and can,t drain efficiently, a baffled oil pan with a windage screen and a 7-8 quart oil capacity tends to solve that issue, as most aftermarket high capacity oil pans have baffles trapping the oil around the oil pump pick-up while the stock pans pick-up is located in the forward sump, that and its limited capacity tends to allow the pump to suck air under high g-loads, the same g-forces sloshing fuel would cause the fuel pump pick-up in the fuel tank to suck air and rapidly drop the fuel pressure, so thats a possible cause also
do you have an in the car fuel gauge set reading the fuel rail pressure, and oil pressure? if not, it would sure help diagnose the cause/problem


viewtopic.php?f=55&t=211&p=247#p247


viewtopic.php?f=62&t=1469&p=3303&hilit=+gauges#p3303

http://www.ecklers.com/search.asp?action=freeSearch&free_text=oil%20pressure%20sensor&yearConstraint=1987&searchHistory=

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BTW, if your building a BBC this oil pan works in many applications, but its 8" deep so its too low for some cars
http://www.wheelerpowerproducts.com/p-5 ... l-pan.aspx
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTR-15-320/
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the oil pressure switch might be defective, if the fuel pump won,t run, even if its new
and at $11-$35 Id just swap it out if your concerned

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http://www.ecklers.com/product.asp?pf_i ... ept_id=153
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http://www.ecklers.com/product.asp?pf_i ... ept_id=153

the single terminal sensor runs the oil gauge the dual connector runs the fuel pump ONCE theres about 5 psi of oil pressure but they do fail and they do leak oil when they fail and both are commonly located near the distributor

I added a 8 quart oil pan and it significantly reduced the engines oil temp range, but I also added a large separate transmission fluid cooler mounted where my spare tire used to be mounted along with a separate electric fan that cools it , you may want to get a similar oil cooler, but do your self a favor and measure carefully before ordering the main reason I mounted the trans cooler where I did was that it was very difficult to mount it anyplace else as I ordered the largest capacity cooler then found it was about 2" larger than the original location it was intended to be mounted in, everything works great, but it took a bit of engineering/fabrication
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » November 28th, 2010, 9:25 am

http://www.motoiq.com/forum/aff/82/aft/ ... topic.aspx

heres a link to a guy who did some nice oil pan fabrication work

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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby DorianL » December 1st, 2010, 10:35 am

Wow!!!! Maybe it is about time I learn how to weld...
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Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » December 1st, 2010, 10:41 am

DorianL wrote:Wow!!!! Maybe it is about time I learn how to weld...


http://www.kevkoracing.com/wetsump_chevy.htm

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/store/oilpans.html

http://www.stefs.com/stefsindex.htm

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187&p=31721&hilit=oil+cooler#p31721

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=8966

BINGO!
we have a whole section on welding related info

I can,t even imaging not having a decent MIG or TIG

ESPECIALLY the TIG
why not read thru a few threads
viewforum.php?f=60

which of course your more than welcome to add info too, or post questions IN!
BTW heres an interesting article
http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles ... index.html
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This chart shows how oil levels can affect power. Using the stock pan designed to hold 4 quarts (so the system total is 5 quarts when the filter is included), we varied the oil levels to see how power was affected. As you can see, more oil created more windage problems.Unfortunately, 5 quarts is often too little oil to properly protect the engine under racing conditions. The oil is too easily overheated, and the potential for the oil pump to completely drain the pan is too high.Racing pans are normally designed to hold more oil so that this doesn't happen. Both the Champ pans we used are designed to hold at least 7quarts of oil. (For the sake of consistency, we used 5 quarts of oil as our baseline in all our tests no matter what pan we used.)

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This chart compares the stock pan to Champ's dual kick out pan with a windage tray. Notice how the differences become greater as rpm levels increase. Runs were made with both pans using 5 and 6 quarts of oil.With a quality racing oil pan, you can use more oil for better protection while still getting better performance from your engine.
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Working with Oil Windage
This chart was our big surprise over the two days we spent testing. We ran Champ's high-end single kick-out pan with and without the windage tray and were surprised to see the results were better without the tray.This, however, turned out to be a flawed test. With just 5 quarts of oil in the system, the pan alone could adequately protect the crankshaft from the oil with or without the pan. But use 7 quarts in the system,as the pans designed to do,and as we should have done, and put the engine in a car that's on a racetrack where the oil will slosh around, and the results will be much different.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » March 3rd, 2011, 5:27 pm

http://www.dragracingonline.com/technic ... pan-1.html
it should be understood, that oil pan baffles and gates are designed to allow the easy flow of oil towards the oil pump pick-up but to restrict the oil flow away from the oil pump pick-up under sudden changes in acceleration,braking or centrifugal forces in turns which in an open unrestricted sump will allow the oil to slosh away from the oil pump pick-up, if that is allowed to occur the oil pump sucks air and the protective pressurized layer of oil on bearing surfaces is reduced or temporarily eliminated, and bearing failure is the frequent result in seconds.
the greater the oil pan capacity and the better the baffles are designed the higher the likely hood that the oil pump pick-up will remain covered,and the less likely your oil pump is to suck air under higher g-loads, caused by braking or acceleration or hard turns.
in a normal engine theres about 2-3 quarts flowing in the oil passages,lifter gallery and cylinder heads, or spinning with the crank assembly, at higher rpm levels, so it should be obvious, that if youve got a 5 quart oil pan that leaves only about 2-3 quarts in the oil pan, but with an 8 quart oil pan theres still 5-6 quarts being cooled and sitting over the oil pump pick-up in a properly designed oil pan
a well designed windage screen and crank scraper,in a baffled oil pan,tends to strip oil off the spinning crank assembly and rapidly direct it into the oil pan sump, far more efficiently than a pan without those features.
you might want to keep in mind that a effective oil control system will generally require an oil accumulator, baffled oil pan and a windage screen with an optional oil cooler


the high temp magnets tend to stay right where they are placed, in a steel oil pan, but youll need J&B weld in an aluminum oil pan application, in my experience PROVIDED you use the ones designed to function in the heat range they can tolerate, just be aware you don,t want them too close to swinging oil baffle door flaps in a baffled oil pan as they have been known to hold those swinging gates open or closed if placed in the wrong areas,
example,
If this is an oil pan with this oil control baffle wall installed ,with steel oil control baffle doors, placing a magnet above these baffle doors is almost sure to prevent them from closing or placing one below is a sure way to keep them locked closed, thats one reason light weight ALUMINUM baffle doors are preferred,even in steel oil pans, the oil sloshing moves them, from open to closed as designed easily , limiting oil flow to movement in the direction desired, and magnets don,t tend to limit movement
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read these links
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=64

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3536

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=615

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1280&p=6082&hilit=accumulator#p6082


http://www.crank-scrapers.com/ebay%20ads/ebay_index.htm

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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » April 10th, 2012, 12:45 pm

I had a long discussion with an old friend about a problem he was having with his oil pressure dropping, when he hits the brakes really hard, or accelerates hard,and I suggested he look into swapping to a better design , higher capacity ,of performance ,baffled oil pan having a minimum of 8 quart capacity. hes had that problem ever since he swapped in a few high performance components and much to my amazement he constantly resists the idea that a larger capacity baffled oil pan will be central to solving his oil control issues.
his main problem is his engines a MARK VI 454 and finding a 7.5" max depth 8 quart oil pan is proving rather difficult, so I suggested we carefully fabricate a custom oil pan after careful measurement.
the suggestion went over about as well as if I suggested self castration with a broken beer bottle....the reason, is he has zero previous experience welding and has no welder, I suggested that we could either do it our selfs or have a local shop fabricate a custom oil pan, but I get the strong feeling that he thinks that any part thats not taken out of the box and bolted on is obviously going to be defective.
I guess Ill need to introduce him to the amazing world of poster board and duct tape, being used to prefabricate patterns for the sheet steel so you get the basic flaws and trial and error fitting, during the fabrication process worked out before you start cutting sheet metal.
obviously youll leave the oil pan solidly bolted to a spare block to minimize and warping and you'll stitch weld the new steel sump to the old oil pan rails and partial remains too spread the stress and heat build up, during fabrication, you will obviously need to make a viable pattern in poster board and tape to use to cut the sheet steel, first. youll, usually start with a spare stock oil pan , clean it with a good rotating wire brush to make welding easy, and cut the current sump off and modify the new replacement sump and internal baffles to suit the application.
you generally can,t build a custom oil pan any shallower than 7.5" depth on a mark VI big block, as clearance issues limit your options, because the oil pan rail to bottom of the standard oil pump is about 7.390"
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » April 3rd, 2013, 1:08 pm

the more I build engines, the more often I seem too run into guys that rarely think thru or in many cases even think about the need for totally dependable lubrication and cooling systems on the engines they build.
now a stock oil pan is just that!.. stock, and designed to be cheap to build and it is fully adequate for an engine that will rarely see use at rpm levels much above 4500rpm.
it makes little sense to use a stock 4-5 quart oil pan on a performance application, without thinking thru the potential results and looking into upgrades.
In fact Ive talked to a few G.M. engineers over the years , when I had the chance, and they freely admit the vast majority of the time, their efforts go into reducing cost, making the design or manufacturing of the parts , faster, easier and more cost effective and trying to reduce exhaust emissions,or increasing mileage and darn little effort is put into building parts to maximize performance .
now Im not saying theres no effort done to increase ,performance, its just far from the main objective most of the time.
obviously there are occasional exceptions.
one reason I bother to point this out is its rather common to see evidence when I pull down and inspect engines to see indications of bearings being run hotter than ideal or signs of occasional limited lubrication and those factors can and do lower engine durability.
yes parts are available in most cases that can increase engine durability , but as volume is reduced individual parts cost tends to go up.
now the sad part is that in most cases its not all that expensive or difficult for you to select and install a larger capacity baffled oil pan, windage screen and/or remote oil filter and or remote mounted oil cooler, all of which can in some cases greatly lengthen expected engine durability

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related info
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=8966

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3144&p=16458&hilit=remote+filter#p16458

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=176&p=12324&hilit=remote+filter#p12324

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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » July 10th, 2013, 3:23 pm

I spent some time this morning helping a friend try to figure out how large a custom sump could be fabricated on his current cars oil pan , and still maintain both fairly easy access to the oil pan rail mount bolts and starter and oil filter access.
I suggested we put the car up on my shops lift and take some actual measurements from under the car, so he could see what might be involved, and then I cut a fairly larger part of a cardboard box up, and duct taped it into place on the bottom of the current oil pan, on his car and used a exact-to knife to trim it , so he could better visualize the shape and size of the potentially modified larger oil pan sump. the result was that we found he could basically extend the current sump forward about 4.75 ", easily gaining him at least 2 quarts capacity, but the gains that were possible with a wider sump would not really be worth the time and effort as he could only make the sump about 1/2 wider.
I had some contact cement designed for weather seals and a sheet of Styrofoam and I cut up several pieces and cut and shaped them and showed him what the extended sump section might look like. I don,t know if he will go thru the process but between the cardboard and Styrofoam and duct tape, on the mock up, it was fairly obvious that the mods he could do to his current oil pan could be done fairly easily,and it would not be difficult to add 2 quart capacity and a baffle to control oil surge if he chooses to do so.
now hes understandably reluctant to start cutting and welding on his current oil pan so I suggested we visit a salvage yard and find a similar car from which we can get the required oil pan to do the mods on without putting his current oil pan at risk, thus maintaining a solid fall back part so if the modified part fails to fit and function he can maintain the original stock oil pan, and won,t be out much but the time and effort to fabricate and test fit the potentially larger capacity oil pan.

please ignore my horrible computer art skills but this might help you visualize
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http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=206

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=4578&p=12188&hilit=+gasket+thick#p12188

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=672&p=929#p929
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » June 6th, 2014, 5:10 pm

heres a few bits of interesting info on a guys modifying a ford oil pan
http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/engine- ... style.html
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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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