building a custom wet sump oil pan



Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » June 6th, 2014, 5:47 pm

there are some nice commercially made semi custom oil pans

Image
http://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/htm ... s_bbc.html


Image
http://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/store/htm ... s_sbc.html

BTW HERES AN IMPORTANT TIP, IF YOUR INSTALLING A REMOTE OIL COOLER, IT is really common for guys to use lines that are far too small, that restrict flow oil flow or select a transmission or oil cooler that has to small of internal passages, shop carefully you want a MINIMUM of 1/2, or AN8 line size and 5/8" or AN10 is BETTER.
[b]many guys don,t realize that adding an oil and/or a transmission fluid cooler, with its own fan and radiator that allows those liquids to be cooled separately, to your engine and drive train, significantly reduces the heat load on the radiator, and generally allows the engine temps to decline noticeably. in fact just adding a high volume oil pan and a transmission cooler can drop your engine coolant temps 20F-30F in many cases

Image

Image
remote mounted oil filters can be used along with an oil cooler to to increase transmission cooler efficiency
Image
a rather common issue with adding oil coolers, is that many of the coolers available can significantly restrict fluid flow because of the small restrictive internal cross section of the internal tubing, AN #6 and 3/8" tube coolers can be quite restrictive, the AN#8 are better but DUAL AN#8 coolers and AN#10 lines generally work the best, and there's also frequently limited space to position a cooler in the outside cool air flow mandating a powered fans.
the solution to both issues can and frequently does require use of two different oil coolers but placed in series this can further increase flow restrictions, the solution is in use of larger internal cross sectional area,transfer lines and mounting the twin coolers in parallel thus doubling the effective cross sectional area reducing the flow restriction the cooler potentially could produce if used in series

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-part ... olers2.htm

http://www.grandprix.net/upgrades/cooler.html

http://www.iroczone.com/projtranscooler.htm

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/tech/ ... index.html

http://www.bulkpart.com/transmission-cooler.html

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1280&p=2741&hilit=+tank+oil+drops#p2741

http://www.fordmuscle.com/forums/tech-e ... ooler.html

heres a decent trans cooler

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

heres a decent trans and engine oil combo cooler

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku


MOST guys run 3/8" lines to the transmission cooler, theres not much sense in running larger than 3/8"-1/2" lines simply because the restrictions in the trans in and out ports make larger lines wasted effort and smaller lines are too restrictive

heres my corvettes trans cooler

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

notice the 3/8" NPT fitting size, measure very carefully and a local hydraulic supply can make you custom lines to fit your cars custom trans cooler installation, making the install far easier, btw if you do what I did the spare tires removed and the carry lid that covers it needs to be modified but it works great

heres one way to hook up cooler lines in tight places

Image

Image

Image

keep in mind you can install a heat controlled valve that routes cool trans or engine oil back to the engine or transmission but one either fluid heats up it routes the hot fluid thru the cooler
Image
Image
Id also point out that swapping to a 7-8 quart oil pan significantly increases the surface heat transfer area and in my experience that significant reduces oil temps all by itself.
Id also point out that adding an auxiliary oil cooler with electric fan ,mated with larger AN#10 oil line size,and use of the longer higher capacity oil filter(s) to any corvette (STOCK OR BIG BLOCK ENGINE SWAP) adds effective oil flow volume to the engine, this can be a HUGE advantage when theres limited room due to ground clearance or header clearance issues that limits the size of the oil pan itself that can be used.
Image
Image
http://shop.perma-cool.com/1073-Oil-The ... s-1073.htm
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

User avatar
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida

Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby 87vette81big » June 8th, 2014, 6:12 am

I want to custom modify my 1965 Olds 425 Oil pan Grumpy.
My 1963 GP Has lots of ground clearance.
Like a Road Race Drag Race style oil pan rear sump.
11 quarts In pan.
Any ideas ?
The Olds 425 stock pan in good shape. Plain jain steel.
Milodon sells nice & priced, cost me $600 to use all they have for Olds BB.

1962-63 Pontiac 421 SD Had 11 quart stock sump oil pans.
Pictures are Rare on Net. Only seen 1 time in magazine writeup 25 years ago.
Olds 425 has 6 degree valve inclination angle heads.
Cast Iron Olds "A" Heads flow nice stock.
Have hardware purchased now to make valvetrain adjustable.
Lowbuck street performer that should surprise a few Vette owners.
87vette81big

User avatar
 
Posts: 3278
Joined: February 28th, 2012, 12:34 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » June 8th, 2014, 9:07 am

PLEASE EXCUSE MY VERY LIMITED AND TOTALLY INADEQUATE COMPUTER GRAPHIC SKILLS HERE, in this post, but it should give you the basic concept if you read the text<
there are several places to buy add on sump kits but after trying those kits on several occasions,and fabricating my own patterns with cardboard and tape then transferring those to steel,and generally not having the $350-$600 for a commercial oil pan available, I found what I thought was a better option
Image

Image
[b]ammo cans , you might want to use as a source of material for oil pan sump material, commonly come in 223,30 cal,50 cal and 20mm and several sizes of each caliber is made by several manufacturers, so shop carefully

30 cal ammo cans are about 6" tall 10"wide and 3.5" deep

50 cal ammo cans are about 6.5" tall 11"wide and 5.5" deep

Image
theres roughly 58 cubic inches in a quart, ,so a 30 cal can in theory holds an additional 3.5 quarts of oil capacity
and a 50 cal ammo can welded into a sump, if its full depth is used in theory adds 6.5 quarts if its full capacity is utilized, knowing things like this, is why owning a good MIG or TIG welder and having fabrication skills is a worth while skill and tool set to acquire

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway- ... ,3509.html
most of the time Ill start with a fairly cheap pan like these , which are surprisingly decent quality for the price and a decent place to start fabricating and then I just add several quarts of additional sump capacity and a windage screen, in the case of those pans the front cross member on a corvette hits the lower front edge of the oil pan until you cut and weld a 45 degree bevel in the forward chin about 1" wide to gain clearance, and the two diagonal braces limit the forward sump extension placement unless you make it rather triangular to clear,naturally a custom sump requires you to measure for header and suspension clearances, don,t forget to leave access for the oil filter and starter
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Garage-Sa ... ,5083.html
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
what I generally do is get the car up on a lift and very carefully measure all the clearances I have with the starter,oil filter, headers,K-frame steering linkage ETC. then I take two 30 caliber ammo cans and cut the lids off below the rims at what ever depth is required so I can weld the two open remaining steel formed container open ends to a similar modified 30 caliber can,facing each other,to form a closed box that will be the sump, the two cans will some times be welded offset ,and positioned either forward and aft or left and right as best suits the applications requirements to maximize the sump capacity and allow access to the starter and oil filter and not block the headers or k-member etc. as might be required in the sump design, off set cans might be requiring a block off plate section, or sometimes the two cans are welded directly mouth to mouth, this forms the sump, a drain plug is welded in the lower rear corner, which can, be done once the design is confirmed , and when correctly done and matched to a decent oil pan easily make a 7-9 quart capacity baffle oil pan of very superior oil control design, I then band saw of the matching lower oil pan sump, on the original oil an and tack weld the sump in place to test fit for correct clearances.once that sumps in place the upper surfaces is cut open to get the access to the sump internal capacity, but by welding it into the pan first as a solid rectangular boxed structure its much more rigid and tends to warp less.
once thats done and found to be correct you can decide if you want to install vertical tubes to allow easy access to the oil pan rail bolts thru the extended sump or fight getting to them above the extended sump one the pans in the car and you have limited access. and stitch weld the sump to the oil pan, Be darn sure you stitch weld the oil pan while its firmly bolted to a spare block to help limit its potential of heat warping , in 1",weld, skip 2" weld 1" skip 2' and use a MIG OR TIG welder and lay a sopping wet scrap bath towel on the pan on all areas your not welding,as a heat sink,as excess heat can warp the oil pan.
once you get the basic outer oil pan tested so it wont leak by filling it with hot soapy water and find no leaks you carefully measure the clearance you need for the windage screen, arc as that extends down below the block rail level and look carefully at where the oil pump ind pick-up need to sit in the sump, this will require several test fits,
Image
Image
Image
I generally prefer to weld my baffles and gates to the upper surge/slosh plate so its removable as a unit for easy cleaning, and use welded in 1/4 28 studs with NYLOC NUTS, and careful measuring is required to make sure the baffles and gates fit flush with the oil pan floor and the oil flow control gates swing easily in the correct direction
Image
obviously theres options to nyloc nuts
Image
Image
Image
Image
DRILLED FOR locking pins or wires, correctly done you can fabricate something far superior to whats commercially available

Image
Image
Image
[/b]
Image
http://www.chevelles.com/techref/ScreenInstall.pdf
Image
Image


heres the underside of a stock 96 corvette oil pan
Image
the starter (A) prevents the sump extension in that area,but the area out-lined in yellow can be modified with additional sump capacity if you measure and fabricate accurately
Image
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

User avatar
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida

Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby 87vette81big » June 8th, 2014, 11:28 am

I have to get on the computer to view better Grumpy.
Phone not cutting it.
There is truth to sucking the oil pan dry with High Volume Pumps with Pontiac & Oldsmobile V8's.
Added sump Volume a Big benefit in both engines.
SBF 5.0 guys real carefull about oil control too.
But You go beyond them. NASCAR Style before Dry Sump Era.
Last edited by 87vette81big on June 8th, 2014, 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
87vette81big

User avatar
 
Posts: 3278
Joined: February 28th, 2012, 12:34 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby 87vette81big » June 8th, 2014, 11:31 am

Never thought of Ammo Cans Grumpy as Steel Mockup tool.
Seen them recent for sale near me.
Must get a few real soon.
87vette81big

User avatar
 
Posts: 3278
Joined: February 28th, 2012, 12:34 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby 87vette81big » June 8th, 2014, 4:39 pm

I stopped at my local Rural King store a few hours ago Grumpy.
They had .50 calibur Ammo Cans. I think they are China knockoffs.
On sale for $15 each.
Didn't like the bottoms. Spot welded flat seperate sheet.
Are the .30 calibur Ammo cans 1 piece lower cans ?
You have a source ?
Or are they Military Surplus ?
Using stock 425 exhaust manifolds for now.
Headers have to be made later.
Nice option is the 1965 Olds 425 Starfire reproduction Ex Mainfold but its $300.
Have to wait later for that.5,500-6,000 Rpm target range.
So it will stay together without exotic lower end parts.
87vette81big

User avatar
 
Posts: 3278
Joined: February 28th, 2012, 12:34 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby 87vette81big » June 8th, 2014, 7:56 pm

I found the 30 Cal Ammo boxes Grumpy.
Want 3 of them.
2 On each side of the 425 Olds stock pan.
1 On the bottom side.
Want at least 11 quarts total volume in the pan.
Original US Surplus . Not China Junk.
Get it done for $100 or less.
Do it myself.
87vette81big

User avatar
 
Posts: 3278
Joined: February 28th, 2012, 12:34 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby 87vette81big » June 8th, 2014, 7:58 pm

One more for SHTF.
Jackoff Bam Bam still doing the worst.
87vette81big

User avatar
 
Posts: 3278
Joined: February 28th, 2012, 12:34 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby 87vette81big » June 9th, 2014, 11:21 am

Waiting for parts again Grumpy. At work now.
I am excited building my own custom 9-11 Quart oil pan for my 425 Olds.
People are bidding on my parts on Fleabay.
Went to auction style. Multiple bidders going at it.
Have those 30 cal Ammo boxes & spare spending $$$ soon.
87vette81big

User avatar
 
Posts: 3278
Joined: February 28th, 2012, 12:34 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » June 9th, 2014, 1:43 pm

step (1) on any custom oil pan is youll need a stock oil pan to start with, that you can use to supply the oil pan rails , then, you measure distance from block rails to bottom of oil pump pick-up and pump,you will use , obviously your not easily going to make an oil pan any shallower than about 3/8" deeper than the depth the oil pump extends into the oil pan below the block oil pan rails, and on some oil pump designs the oil pump pick-up must be lower than that distance , on the big block chevy pump the oil pump pick- up can be set about at the same distance from the oil pump base, from the oil pan floor.
it should also be obvious that having the car the oil pan will be used in to measure clearances is critical, and youll need the headers installed and steering linkage etc.naturally a custom sump requires you to measure for header and suspension clearances, don,t forget to leave access for the oil filter and starter to check clearances on the oil pan,keep in mind you can add auxiliary oil coolers or remote mount oil filters to add extra oil capacity
Image Image
small block oil pump pick-up exit the oil pump bottom plate big block pump pick-ups exit the pump body
in either case your limited and can rarely build a oil pan shallower than 7" in depth , but the length and width has options depending on the frame,suspension, oil filter, headers etc.
STEP 2 leave room to get to the oil filter, and oil pan bolts so they can be tightened or loosened, , if you can,t access the oil pan bolts with the engine in the car youll hate that oil pan and the leaks it is sure to eventually have and do not have the headers , frame or suspension or anything else touch the oil pan, and leave at lease 4" of ground clearance under the oil pan floor with YOUR WEIGHT IN THE CAR
step 3
a oil drain , located on a back vertical lower corner where you can access it and remove it easily when required is a nice feature,but remember to think it thru, if the block saver plate, bell housing, or flywheel is in the way , you have a problem, try not to use lower horizontal surfaces as lower horizontal surfaces tend to get scraped off if they stick down below the oil pan floor level
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

User avatar
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida

Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby 87vette81big » June 9th, 2014, 2:12 pm

I still have the 403 SB Olds in the '63 GP Grumpy & hooked to the Turbo 400 Trans.
Olds 425 on an engine stand.
Olds 425 is a Tall deck design.
Olds 403 is Low deck.
Both oil pans interchange but have to lightly dimple Small block 403 pan at #2 & #3 main cap bolts areas in pan.
Will then bolt on 425 , 400 & 455 Olds engines.
So I can mockup pretty easily.
Been a while since I made and built something custom for myself.
87vette81big

User avatar
 
Posts: 3278
Joined: February 28th, 2012, 12:34 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » June 9th, 2014, 3:01 pm

read thru the whole thread from the start again I went back thru and posted more info where I thought it might help
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

User avatar
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida

Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby 87vette81big » June 9th, 2014, 9:53 pm

Thsnks Grumpy.
I am reading.
There is plenty of Room under that 63 GP.
No headers so I can be creative.
Just have Headpipes bent later.

3-1/2 + 3-1/2 + 6-1/2 = 13-1/2 Quarts total sump volume.
I like it.
:mrgreen:
87vette81big

User avatar
 
Posts: 3278
Joined: February 28th, 2012, 12:34 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby grumpyvette » June 10th, 2014, 9:35 am

87vette81big wrote:Thsnks Grumpy.
I am reading.
There is plenty of Room under that 63 GP.
No headers so I can be creative.
Just have Headpipes bent later.

3-1/2 + 3-1/2 + 6-1/2 = 13-1/2 Quarts total sump volume.
I like it.
:mrgreen:


3.5"x 3.5"x6.5"=79.625 cubic inches==1.37 quarts
you would have to do some thing like weld two 50 cal ammo cans open ends together then weld them to the bottom of a modified oil pan, then cut open access to the ammo cans and add the internal baffles to get that 13 quart capacity something vaugley similar to this, where the new sump extends both forward and out to both sides and down, if you have the room and the welding skill, yeah, its not hard and it can be a great asset to engine durability if correctly designed and built.
Image
Image
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

User avatar
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
Location: florida

Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby 87vette81big » June 10th, 2014, 9:44 am

grumpyvette wrote:
87vette81big wrote:Thsnks Grumpy.
I am reading.
There is plenty of Room under that 63 GP.
No headers so I can be creative.
Just have Headpipes bent later.

3-1/2 + 3-1/2 + 6-1/2 = 13-1/2 Quarts total sump volume.
I like it.
:mrgreen:


3.5"x 3.5"x6.5"=79.625 cubic inches==1.37 quarts

I went by 2 30 calibur ammo cans welded on complete as side wings sumps & 1 50 calibur Ammo can welded on at 6'oclock complete un trimmed all.
Think I have the room to do so Grumpy.
By your stated volume measurements yesterday .
1963 SD 421 11 quart oil pan had a huge lower sump only.
87vette81big

User avatar
 
Posts: 3278
Joined: February 28th, 2012, 12:34 am
Location: Central Illinois

Re: building a custom wet sump oil pan

Postby 87vette81big » June 10th, 2014, 9:51 am

I can Mig Weld all day long Grumpy.
Have a Snap On MW120 MIG welder. Nice current control on thin sheetmetal.
Does Square wave pulse timed stitch welding too.
Seperate setting.
There is a Military store in Joliet I want to check out.
Found Nice Ammo cans online. Grade 1 shape.

Not sure how exotic I want to get with Trap doors.
The 63 GP is not a corner G force machine.
Its a Road highway warrior & Dragstrip style machine.
Oil control on Launch most important.
It hooksup fast & hard the Old Pontiac.
87vette81big

User avatar
 
Posts: 3278
Joined: February 28th, 2012, 12:34 am
Location: Central Illinois

PreviousNext

Return to Oil and Lube Systems

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron