can you get there with TPI



can you get there with TPI

Postby grumpyvette » July 12th, 2014, 10:44 am

Cool Rocking Daddy wrote:Good morning, Grumpy. I have come across your name and posts in various Vette forums when looking for tuned port injection information. Here's my story.....I have a 69 Camaro with a 355 (started as 10.25:1, 300 hp 350 out of '70 Nova. flat top pistons with 4 valve reliefs) 041 pocket ported heads. Comp Extreme Energy 262 cam (218-224 @ .050, .470 lift) . Edelbrock Performer, 650 Speed Demon carb. Usual headers. Extreme Automatics Stage II 200r4, 3.42 posi rear end.

I love the look of a polished TPI. I picked up a complete unit off a '88 Vette less computer. Everything I have read says that if I want to reach my goals of having this engine pull to 5300-5500 rpms on this street-only car, I need to do some improving on the TPI parts. I have scored a set of large tube AS & M runners. I plan on having hiflowinjection port the plenum and base. He says he can port the base to flow 265-270 cfm . I also plan on putting some Dart Iron Eagle or Pro 1 180 heads on the engine. I know that I will need to burn a chip to maximize the potential of the setup and I plan on switching to MAP computer and eliminate the ninth injector.

I get annoyed when I read threads on TPI because everybody talks about how they won't support 6500+ rpms and suck for racing. I don't want to race. I want a nice cruiser that will have the gobs of torque you want on the street. Do you feel that I can reach my goals. I am figuring I can get close to 420 flywheel HP with the proportionately bigger amount of torque that the TPI motors are famous for. The guy who runs the engine shop at TPiS seems to think I can do it. Just want a second on that before I completely jump into the water.

Thank you so much for your reply.

Chet


I CAN ASSURE YOU IGNORING AND FAILING TO READ THROUGH THE SUB LINKS IS A HUGE MISTAKE IN THIS THREAD,
ID also suggest you have options so think things thru and don,t rush into spending cash on your engine mods
doing it correctly the first time is far smarter than constantly making changes.. spending a bit more, than you might be comfortable with, on better heads and the best matching intake and cam ,up front will seldom be regretted later


viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1052&hilit=pro+flo+edelbrock

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=546&p=685&hilit=tuned+port+restrictive#p685

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=546&p=685#p685

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=431

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=10705&p=46582&hilit=there+with+tuned#p46582

with the mods listed you could rather easily reach or slightly exceed that 420 flywheel hp level.
the key is the better heads and porting the intakes component parts...
PROVIDED you supply the fuel/air ratio and low restriction exhaust to allow the heads to breath
a low restriction exhaust and headers would also be helpful
THESE HEADS,LINKED BELOW OR SIMILAR HEADS, but obviously verify the valve train clearances and geometry , and get the quench distance in the .038-.044 range
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/drt-127122
youll really need 36 lb injectors to support 420-440 hp.failure to upgrade injectors will cause lean burn durability issues at well under 420hp level with stock injectors
a swap to a roller cam and roller rockers along with those dart heads would make the goal far easier to reach, but like most of us your probably on a tight budget, while you may get to that power level with that flat tappet cam, a bit more duration in a similar cam like this should make it easier
http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.p ... il&p=23976
in the future you might consider upgrading to a 3.75" stroker crank assembly and a mild over bore as the extra displacement gained converting a 350 to a 383 alone easily adds 40 ft lbs and 40 hp or more to the results from the extra displacement and crank leverage both allow the engine to operate at about 400rpm-500rpm lower and still make more power, as you look thru the links and sub links below keep in mind many are 383-406 displacement and many have larger cam duration numbers and better head flow numbers

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heres what DD2000 software predicts a similar build combo produce's with basically stock TPI flow rate components, and a cam similar too the one you listed and similar dart heads, with the port work the increased flow should easily get you to your goal, especially if you swapped to the upgrade crane cam, but that might also require a higher stall speed converter

a couple hours spent READING THRU THESE THREADS could give you more info
http://www.smartfireinjectors.com/fuelflowchart.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_ni39iwAys

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/t ... ck_engine/

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=546&p=685&hilit=tuned+port+restrictive#p685

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=433&p=37683&hilit=first+tuned+port+intake#p37683

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=45&p=53&hilit=tuned+port+restrictive#p53

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=9930

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=10623&p=45691#p45691

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=10382&p=42909&hilit=+tuned+port#p42909

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1239

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=10377&p=42862&hilit=+tuned+port#p42862

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1052&p=37127&hilit=vortec+tpi#p37127

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1509&p=3459#p3459
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: can you get there with TPI

Postby grumpyvette » July 12th, 2014, 1:54 pm

http://www.dartheads.com/products/aitdo ... le_id/103/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engine ... 6sc-major/


IVE POSTED THIS LINKED INFO BEFORE BUT IT MAY BE USEFUL HERE
as the sub links contain a great deal of related info


theres a good many more dyno tested combos in this thread
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=519

http://xtremecarzone.com.au/STORAGE/ART ... ptions.pdf
Id also point out that cam timing matched to the exhaust scavenging has a huge effect on potential intake flow rates
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I think this may help

http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

http://www.wallaceracing.com/runnertorquecalc.php

http://racingfeed.com/downloads/chevy_flow_data.pdf

http://www.velocity-of-sound.com/veloci ... lator3.htm

http://2.3liter.com/Calc2.htm#MinCross

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=366&p=448#p448

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/t ... index.html

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/t ... index.html

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1231&p=19119&hilit=runner+flow+numbers#p19119

DON,T FORGET TO MATCH THE HEADER SCAVENGING RPM BAND TO MATCH THE INTAKE AND CAM TIMING AND ENGINE DISPLACEMENT
in a properly designed combo cam timing,and duration, intake port cross sectional area and header length and diameter will be matched to displacement, compression ratio and drive train gearing so every factor is designed to peak efficiency at near the upper 2/3rds of the intended operational rpm band, and keep the critical piston speed below the peak operational rpm range

WHAT GOES IN NEEDS TO GET DRAWN OUT
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=185

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while reading thru the info below , keep in mind the combo of cylinder heads,you select,your exhaust headers,and the restriction the exhaust system behind those headers cause,your effective compression ratio, your cam timing and the design and flow limitations of the intake manifold you used all effect the results, a stock throttle body is a minimal restrictive factor compared to what the other components listed contribute in most cases

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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Posts: 14105
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Re: can you get there with TPI

Postby Cool Rocking Daddy » July 12th, 2014, 3:01 pm

Fantastic! :D This verifies what I figured from doing research. The exhaust is no problem as I have 1 5/8 headers going into an American Thunder 2.5 dual exhaust system. Head change will be made before tackling this TPI swap. Fuel needs will be handled by a Phantom in-tank electric pump with the proper lines. This will be next summer's project. As you said, saving and budgeting must be done to keep the better half happy.
Cool Rocking Daddy

 
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Re: can you get there with TPI

Postby grumpyvette » July 13th, 2014, 12:45 pm

http://www.hotrodhandbooks.com.au/eBook ... -03-1.html
Chevrolets Tuned Port Fuel Injection System, or TPI as it is more commonly referred to, first appeared on production vehicles in 1985 and, since then, has been used on all Corvettes and on many specially equipped Camaros and Firebirds. GM advertising claims of up to a 20% improvement in torque, horsepower and mileage, over equivalent carbureted engines have proven conservative, if road and dyno tests caried out by the various automotive enthusiast magazines are to be relied upon. As the following table illustrates, the horsepower and torque ratings of the basic 350 cu.in. engine used in GM cars since 1980 have increased substantially, with only minor changes other than the fuel injection system. While a portion of the power improvements can be attributed to increases in compression ratio and decreases in engine friction, especially in the later engines with roller tappet camshafts, the majority is attributable to the overall efficiency of the Computer Controlled Tuned Port Electronic Fuel Injection System.

REMEMBER ALL THE TUNED PORT ENGINES IN STOCK FORM ARE RATHER PATHETIC COMPARED TO THE TRUE POTENTIAL
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I was asked what combo of parts ID use if I was going to build a tuned port intake based small block chevy engine.
well the first step would in my mind to select the currently best flowing TPI style intake which is the FIRST DESIGN,(keep in mind the basic TPI intake design is set up to maximize mid rpm range torque,with its longer ram tube intake runners, so Id build it based on a DART BLOCK,built to be a 406-to-427 displacement with 6" rods with 7/16" ARP rod bolts and an internally balanced 4340 forged crank, forged pistons and 10.5:1 compression.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/drt-03124272
obviously increasing the displacement, from 350 cid to 406 or larger , and bumping the compression up into the 10.5:1 range and changing the roller cam timing from about 210 @.050 to the higher 235-240 @.050 duration and high mid .550-to-.600 lift range will help, but swapping too much better cylinder heads matched too a far better flowing intake than the restrictive stock TPI, and adding tuned headers , that are tuned for scavenging those cylinders, as a matched combo can DOUBLE the power and significantly increase the rpm range, and adding low friction 1.6:1 ratio roller rockers sure won,t hurt.
but to access that higher rpm range a 3.54:1-3.73:1 rear gear and a 3200 rpm stall converter are near optimal.

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http://www.firstfuelinjection.com
THE larger 1.75" (2.45 sq inch cross sectional area)of the FIRST intake design, vs the STOCK 1.47" diameter runner cross section (1.7 sq inch cross sectional area), of the stock G.M. tpi, intake adds at least 1200 rpm to the engines potential IF properly matched to the correct components, like 42lb injectors, un-ported this runner should provide peak power in the 4500rpm-6000rpm range, while the stock TPI intake runners peak at least 1200rpm lower, near 3400rpm where they tend to start restricting flow
Id select decent flowing heads like these
http://www.airflowresearch.com/index.php?cPath=24_33
these 1.6:1 ratio roller rockers
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-1605-16
a cam like this, if your goal is max peak power
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-119651
a cam like this, if your goal is good driveability on the street with good power
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-119661

http://www.summitracing.com/search?Sort ... er%2000471
a cam like this, (crower above)if your goal is good driveability on the street with good power, but your willing to put up with some low speed driveability issues to get more power (it basically splits the difference,I tried all three and went with the smaller crane roller

a good quality 7-8 quart oil pan with windage tray
http://www.race-mart.com/Milodon-MIL-31516.html
these valve covers
http://www.proformparts.com/product-exe ... ory_id/249
a high flow water pump
and a vertex magneto ignition
Id match that with a 3.73:1 rear gear, 4l80E transmission and 3300rpm stall speed converter
Inj Flow Rate (@ 40psid) Naturally Aspirated hp (@ 0.50)
19 lb/hr 258 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle
24 lb/hr 326 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle
30 lb/hr 408 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle
32 lb/hr 435 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle
39 lb/hr 530 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle
42 lb/hr 571 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle
47 lb/hr 639 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle
60 lb/hr 816 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle


before you go starting to buy the components keep in mind theres other options, something like a 570hp/570 ft lb TPI combo could be built, but your could exceed those numbers easily with a turbo LS engine or 496-572 big block swap

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=151

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=6

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=641&p=1004#p1004

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=431&p=48733#p48733

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5123

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=9930

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=7722

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=10406
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: can you get there with TPI

Postby grumpyvette » April 20th, 2015, 4:24 pm

I have seen a more or less consistently re-curing general problem, I see guys have coming to the shop, and its based on the fact that Id say 80% or more of the guys that own a muscle car are darn near clueless in their ability to trouble shoot, problems,verify parts or component function and tune a car.
if the engines not running correctly theres a reason, and pulling the trouble codes,or if its an older car think it thru logically, getting out a few test meters timing lights and a vacuum gauge will tend to help you find the reason. you might be amazed at the number of times adjusting valves and a tune-up or replacing a defective sensor, OR REPLACING OLD SPARK PLUG,S or leaking vacuum hoses or worn ignition parts, make a HUGE DIFFERENCE in the way a car runs
you JUST need a shop manual for YOUR YEAR CORVETTE,OR MUSCLE CAR, a vacuum GAUGE and fuel pressure gauge , a multi meter, timing light and IR temp gun and these links. and the time spent reading the links and sub links.
theres nothing difficult , it just takes a logical step by stem process of test, verify and move to the next potential issue

buy a CHEVY SHOP MANUAL FOR YOUR YEAR CORVETTE!
you always need a base line to start from, on a TPI corvette.
a logical step by step approach and keeping accurate notes helps.
youll NEED a multi meter, a shop manual and a timing light and fuel pressure gauge at a minimum,
set and verify your ignition timing, pull trouble codes,set your tps and iac,, then check for vacuum leaks on the lines and intake,then get out your multi meter and verify all the sensors, chances are good
its a defective heat sensor or defective o2 sensor,
a logical step by step approach will lead you to the problem, youll be amazed at what youll learn reading links. use of a shop manual and multi meter can be very helpful
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http://www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-dig ... 98674.html
put a fuel pressure gauge on the fuel rail on the shrader valve,
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a vacuum and fuel pressure gauge is useful
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Ive found its a whole lot faster to use a quality IR temp gun, to locate a individual cylinder that's mis-firing as it tends to run significantly cooler than adjacent cylinders, or hotter if its a vacuum leak at times, as lean F/A mixes tend to run hotter
(Ive used this one for years)
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http://www.professionalequipment.com/ex ... ermometer/
Wide temperature range from -58 to 1832°F (-50 to 1000°C)

reading the links and sub links will prove rather useful, now and even more so later

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1401

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=168

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=109

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2697

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=196&p=325&hilit=+adjusting+valves#p325

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=2798&p=41104&hilit=trouble+shooting#p41104

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=596

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=596

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=661

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=728

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=10688&p=46303&hilit=multi+shop+manual#p46303
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Site Admin
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Posts: 14105
Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
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