Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System



Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » November 2nd, 2012, 7:03 pm


At this point I'm ready to put some prices on each component of the system that will
be needed to supply 500 HP. The only components not priced are the AN Fittings and
that can't be determined until each piece is known in detail. So to compensate I made
my best educated guess as to how much at $100.

It's no surprise that when I selected only premium parts the cost was way over my
budgeted goal of $500. Knowing ahead of time that the cost would be over budget
I did not use the Aeromotive pump with the nicer ORB connections in System #1,
since that would have been another $52 for a total price of $786.35 dollars
(734.35+52) for System #1.

In system #2, 3 items changed ( Underlined in Table)….. Pump, Pre-Filter and Post-Filter,
reducing the price by $128 to $606.35.

At this point I will have to accept some No Name and questionable products, to
even come close to the goal of $500 or I could eliminate some components like the
"Pre-Filter and the "30 amp Relay & Wiring". The pumps usually draw less that 5 amps,
so just a switch is a possibility, eliminating $22.95 from the total cost.

So I have some choices to make, go over budget or accept a less than desirable fuel system.


NOTE: The column for links will take you to Summit, but this only works if you have “Excel”
or “Open Office” and download my Excel file. If you just clicking on the cell with the links it
will open your browser and go to Summit or if you have to….you can copy and paste the URL.

Open Office is free and can be downloaded at the link below:
http://www.openoffice.org/download/

Download my Excel File :
Fuel System Pricing.xlsx


Fuel System Pricing.jpg


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Rick
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby grumpyvette » November 2nd, 2012, 8:49 pm

yes! thats exactly why its taken me over 6 years to collect only about 1/2 the components I need to do the CORRECTLY DONE, the big block swap in my personal 1985 corvette, I just don,t have the required cash flow to do it correctly yet and I refuse to do it 1/2 assed.
this is a rather addictive hobby that costs a bit more than anyone with, anything close to a middle class income has available
Ive helped 7-8 guys now do that big block into their C4 corvette swap and every last one lacked a few things that I wanted to do,
now they all ran decent but they all had minor issues ID like to avoid, with some guys the radiator they used was stock and marginal, some guys wanted to use the stock trans or rear differential on others the gauges were not ideal, I want every last thing on my car to be flawless

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=151

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=6


SOMETHING LIKE THIS LOOKS GOOD, BUT Id make a few changes, my 1968 vette had crower injection like this
Image
Image
Image
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby bytor » November 3rd, 2012, 6:40 am

Indycars wrote:
The pumps usually draw less that 5 amps,
so just a switch is a possibility, eliminating $22.95 from the total cost.


I have been thinking about the right way to power an electric fuel pump in my EFI setup. I stumbled across these guys. http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FPWH-013&eq=&Tp=
They have some neat fuel pump wiring harness for fuel pumps. I find it interesting that they recommend powering the fuel pump directly from the alternator terminal. I wonder how much benefit you would actually get doing it this way?

I would probably assemble my own harness for my C3 based on the same concept. http://www.racetronix.com/RX-G7-FPWHG.html

G7-FPWH-t.jpg


Factory wiring:
As experienced drivers we all know from observation that there are certain electrical items on our car that when turned on cause the lights to dim, blower motors to slow down and the voltage meter reading on the dash to drop. There are various things that cause this such as battery condition and alternator output but for the most part it is factory wire resistance. In an ideal world car manufacturers would use heavier gauges of wire to reduce resistance in order to prevent voltage drop but that would add much cost, weight and bulk to the harnesses. As a tradeoff car manufacturers try to find a happy medium to satisfy the load requirements for a given circuit in the car without negatively impacting the operation of the device requiring the power at the end of the circuit. The C4's factory fuel pump power circuit was designed to provide power for the light current demands of a factory pump. Typically this circuit is comprised of 16 gauge wiring. Current demands can more than double when a high-performance fuel pump is installed. If we take a step back to high school physics, Ohm's law tells us that when we double the current flowing through a circuit with a fixed resistance the voltage loss across that circuit doubles. The power loss is quadrupled across this circuit which is given off as heat (wasted energy) which can cause electrical contacts (connectors / relays) to heat up and eventually fail. Starving a pump for voltage will cause it to slow down which escalates current demands even more thereby compounding the problem. For those who did not take physics we can consider this scenario... We all know someone who has a high-power car stereo system with heavy power cables running to the amplifier or someone with off-road driving lights using a dedicated circuit with relays. We know what would happen if these amplifiers and lights were hooked up to the same factory circuits which supply the the factory stereo or headlamps! So we pose the question 'how is a high-performance fuel pump any different?' Installing an external fuel pump requires a dedicated power circuit. Just because the factory wiring to your pump is convenient think twice about cramming a 20 amp fuse in panel and consider what you are doing!



The harness:

The factory circuit which supplies the pump is much longer and more complex than many people realize. The circuit looks something like this. Pump connector > in-tank bulkhead connector > external tank connector > relay > fuse box > steering column ignition switch > fusible link > starter solenoid > battery > alternator. Some of these circuits which the fuel pump sources its power from are shared which can compound the voltage drop problems.

The Racetronix harness bypasses the entire factory circuit path to provide maximum voltage at all times to your pump. The Racetronix harness uses heavy 10 gauge copper wire to reduce voltage-drop to very low levels so as not to impact pump performance. Our power feed comes off the back of the alternator where voltage is highest. The voltage at the alternator's output is typically 0.5-1.5 volts higher than at the battery voltage depending on the charge current. It then runs through a weatherproof fuse holder and then to the back of the car. The Racetronix harness has connectors which plug inline with the factory harness at the back of the tank. No cutting or splicing is required. High-quality weatherproof fuse holders and relays are used for maximum reliability. The Racetronix harness has a redundant ground upgrade as it is necessary to improve the harness on the negative side of the pump's supply as well. The only function the factory harness serves is to trigger the relay in the Racetronix harness (0.1 amps) and to supply the level sender signal to your dashboard fuel gauge. If the need should arise the Racetronix harness can be unplugged in a matter of minutes. Some people even use this feature to disable the vehicle and prevent theft by C4 savvy joy riders. All current series II Racetronix harnesses are equipped with a 30 amp intermediate power connector just after the relay. This connector allows any aftermarket pump booster (MSD / KB / BW) to simply plug into the Racetronix harness. Adding a pump booster (voltage amplifier) can increase pump output volume by as much as 35-40% when run at apx. 16.5 volts (pressure dependent). An extra connector set is included to be installed on the pump booster's power leads making it a plug & play interface.
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » November 3rd, 2012, 11:06 am

grumpyvette wrote: I want every last thing on my car to be flawless


I hear you and I try to keep my work flawless, it's the one thing I CAN AFFORD. But decisions have to be made.

My purpose for this thread was to document the process of setting some goals, researching the needs of 500 HP fuel system and selecting the components that will do the job. The goals can be revised, but I had to start somewhere.

I believe system #2 provides a quality fuel system that will perform and be reliable. But to go much below this would mean comprising the system.

Grumpy,
I'm interested to see if there are any changes you would make. What components would you change?
Rick
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » November 3rd, 2012, 11:43 am

bytor wrote:I find it interesting that they recommend powering the fuel pump directly from the alternator terminal. I wonder how much benefit you would actually get doing it this way?


The more voltage you can get to the pump does make a difference. I found this on the Aeromotive website. I zoomed in 400% on the image to measure and get the numbers you see.

http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-page/ ... fuel-pump/

FlowVsVoltage.jpg


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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby grumpyvette » November 3rd, 2012, 11:57 am

system #2 looks good but Id swap to one of these cut off valves, it should work fine and save a few buck$, Ive used them in the past
cut off valve
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-2-half-i ... 66231.html
or
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-4-quarte ... 66233.html
Image

your lucky here because you would have a hard time selecting components or designing a system that won,t work reasonably well as long as you use at l;east AN#6 and preferably AN#8 lines and a decent pump and fuel pressure regulator, the only reason I keep stressing AN#8 is Ive had several cars built with AN#6 lines that ran decent and made 450-550hp, that ran even better and smoother once we upgraded to AN#8 lines and fittings , so if I expect to make near 500 hp I just avoid the issue by using AN#8

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=211

Image
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby grumpyvette » November 5th, 2012, 7:06 pm

A few more detailed, pictures of what your doing as you progress with the fuel system instal or upgrades, would be great if your making any progress, on the car?
darn! I wish you (Indycars) and (DORIANL) , and several other members were all located within the immediate local area, theres so many times Id like to drop over and help out!
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » November 6th, 2012, 10:41 am

grumpyvette wrote:A few more detailed, pictures of what your doing as you progress with the fuel system instal or upgrades, would be great if your making any progress, on the car?

My main focus is the trans, but when I get held up for any reason, the fuel system is what I will do to stay busy. But at some point I will need the body and engine in place to move forward.


darn! I wish you (Indycars) and (DORIANL) , and several other members were all located within the immediate local area, theres so many times Id like to drop over and help out!

We need a retirement village with central shop with every tool possible available, with a Summit and Jegs warehouse just down the road for quick access to all the HP parts we need. Also they will give us a key in case we need something on Sunday or at 2 am in the morning.

Anything else you guys think we would need???


Rick
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby bytor » November 6th, 2012, 11:06 am

Indycars wrote:
Anything else you guys think we would need???


BEER!
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » November 6th, 2012, 12:59 pm


Why just one beer, lets install one of these!

Kegerator.jpg



We might have to keep an eye on it for kids and bytor, or there won't be any left for the rest of us !!! :P


BytorKid.jpg


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Rick
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » November 9th, 2012, 5:06 pm


Is there a preferred placement of the pressure regulator.......before or after the fuel log???


FuelSystemDiagramPreReturnLine.jpg
FuelSystemDiagramPostReturnLine01.jpg


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Rick
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- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby grumpyvette » November 9th, 2012, 5:53 pm

Image

its been my experience in every test, that Ive tried it on with cars, that the regulator mounted after the fuel rail produces better results
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » November 10th, 2012, 11:43 am


Below is the components I have decided to use in my fuel system. Now I'm working
out ALL the AN fittings that will be needed to connect it together. When I get all
the final details worked out I will post that also.

I'm going to pull the 3/8" line out of the frame and put in 1/2", the more I think
about it, it shouldn't be much more work really.

I'm also going to purchase 37° flaring tool.

FuelSystem#3.jpg
AN Specification01.jpg





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Rick
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » November 10th, 2012, 5:22 pm


I'm working out the connections for the carburetor. It seem to me one these would
be a lot more restrictive than using a Y-Block and bending my own 3/8" lines to
each float bowls.

Anyone have any experience with using these components.


MORE RESTRICTIVE:


$31.13
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dem-140057
FuelFedLine.jpg


$69.99
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aaf-all26158
FuelLog.jpg


LESS RESTRICTIVE:


Both Y-Blocks are both 1/2" inlet and 3/8" outlets to each float bowl.

$25.95
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-2 ... dia/images
MRG_Y-Block.jpg


$26.95
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-220108b
AN Y-Fitting.jpg



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Rick
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby grumpyvette » November 10th, 2012, 5:47 pm

youll find you can use (Y) or (TEE) block fittings or AN (Y) or (TEE) fitting that are usually much cheaper at your local hydraulic hose supply fabricator.
what Ive always done is take careful measurements, on the car Im having the fuel lines built to fit, using a section of old garden hose,to duplicate the route and location,of the AN #8 fuel line a model, , and then write down all the lengths and types of fittings on a piece of paper so I could show the diagram to the guys at the hydraulic supply and they usually have it fabricated to match my specs in under 30 minutes
if theses some threads that are not all that common I bring the fitting Im trying to duplicate, in most cases they have the required adapters or can make them dirt cheaply in minutes.

once you carefully explain exactly what your doing and that your building a high flow fuel system, they build you exactly whats required.
I almost always have easy access to short sections of garden hose because I occasionally run over longer sections with my tractor.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » November 12th, 2012, 4:01 pm


Is there a better way to configure the lines around the carburetor without using
two Y-Blocks, with the pressure regulator on the outbound side ???

I've thought about using some square or round tubing and attaching AN fittings to
it, this would replace the two Y-Blocks.


FuelSystemDiagram01.jpg


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Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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