Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System



Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » October 11th, 2012, 7:22 pm


Well I've resigned myself to another summer without driving my TBucket, that's both good and bad. Since I have another five months before it will be warm enough to drive an open car, I want to go thru the component selection and design for a fuel system that will feed the engine that I've built.
Go here for the engine build thread: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814

I say design because I see this a Systems Design project, I have to select the pieces that will work together as a complete functional fuel system as well as decide:

1.) What size lines to use including the supply line and return line.
2.) What materials to use for the metal lines.
3.) Should I route the metal fuel lines, inside the frame, along side the frame or inside a tube along the frame.
4.) Do I use barb fittings, NPT (National Pipe Thread), Army/Navy (AN) fittings, SAE O-Ring Boss (ORB)
5.) Make it ALL CONNECT into one complete system.

Every project should have goals and these are mine: (Please add your suggestions, so that I might add them to the list)

1.) Solicit all the help I can!

2.) Design a fuel system to supply the needs of a 500 HP engine from 50F to 110F.

3.) System must be compatible with 10% to maybe 15% Ethanol if the new regulations go into effect, as I can't count on always having access to 100% pure gasoline.

4.) This fuel system will extend from the aluminum fuel tank (Coors Beer Keg) to the carburetor float bowls.

5.) Budget is $500. This system does not have to be of the caliber of a Pro Stock team that has thousands of dollars on the line if something fails, but I don't want to be stranded on the highway either.

Every component (Pump, Regulator and filter) can be bought with any of the above types of connections. The preferred connection for me at this time is the ORB, since it does NOT need any sealer like NPT does, but it could always change with budget concerns. If you need to work on the fuel system, just get to work, there will nothing needed to put it back together again. No running to the hardware store for Teflon tape.

So to kick this off, I'm going to post some information about the SAE O-Ring Boss (ORB) connection from the Aeromotive website.

Rick
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » October 11th, 2012, 7:27 pm


Image

AN vs. NPT
http://aeromotiveinc.com/tech-bulletins/


Understanding port threads, adapter fittings and line sizes.

The designation AN stands for Army/Navy and calls out mil/spec (military specifications) for dimensional standards of hydraulic lines, hose-end connectors and port adapter fittings. AN specifications are a popular standard met by all companies that manufacture AN style performance fuel hose and accessories. For many there has been much confusion about the subject of AN lines, NPT and ORB ports, and how all of this works together. Here are the answers for those wanting to know.

The flare angle used to seal AN connections is required to be SAE, 37 degree, as apposed to the 45 degree flare commonly found on household plumbing adapters. This angle can be found on the male point of the port adapter fitting and on the female inside the hose-end nut. AN port threads are not NPT or “pipe thread” but instead utilize straight threads (like any normal fastener) and SAE O-Ring Boss (ORB) technology for sealing. AN lines, ORB ports and the appropriate port adapter fittings are measured in inch/fractional sizes.

A dash (–) size in AN “speak” refers to the I.D. of a standard, thin wall, hard line as the basis to construct a comparable flexible hose that may be used in it’s place. A 1/2”, thin wall, hard line measures .500” on the outside diameter (O.D.), has an inside diameter (I.D.) of 0.440”, and a wall thickness of 0.030”. An appropriate, flexible replacement line would be –8 AN, with a minimum 0.440” I.D. Depending on line construction, rubber with stainless steel or nylon braid, or Teflon with stainless steel braid, the line’s wall thickness and O.D. may vary.

AN line sizes will have a dash (-) preceding the line size. The number after the dash refers to the number of 1/16 of an inch O.D., thin wall, hard line to which the flexible line will compare. For example, calling for a –8 AN line would mean the engineer or system designer requires a flexible line, made of certain materials suitable for the application, that would have the minimum I.D. of an 8/16” (1/2”) O.D. hard line. The actual line construction is dictated by the application with regard to line flexibility, vacuum and pressure capability, abrasion resistance and chemical compatibility, etc. Regardless, the engineer knows a -8 line of any construction will have a minimum I.D. equal to 1/2” hard line (.0440”), and be able to support similar flow rates.

Here are some of the common army/navy (AN) line and thread specifications:
-04 AN line = 4/16” = 1/4” hard line. –04 AN Port and Fitting thread is: 7/16” -20 TPI.
-06 AN line = 6/16” = 3/8” hard line. –06 AN Port and Fitting thread is: 9/16” -18 TPI.
-08 AN line = 8/16” = 1/2” hard line. –08 AN Port and Fitting thread is: 3/4” -16 TPI.
-10 AN line = 10/16” = 5/8” hard line. –10 AN Port and Fitting thread is: 7/8” -14 TPI.
-12 AN line = 12/16” = 3/4” hard line. –12 AN Port and Fitting thread is: 1-1/16”-12 TPI.


Modern, high performance fuel systems are predominately fitted with safer, better sealing, higher flowing, AN-ORB ports. These ports require a straight thread adapter fitting, with a sealing O-Ring installed over the threads, up to the hex, that disappears into the port when properly installed. No additional thread sealer is required or recommended.

National Pipe Thread (NPT) ports, AN Ports and port adapter fittings:
Over the years, in low-pressure hydraulics, NPT has been a popular thread for ports and adapter fittings. When NPT ports are used in a fuel system with AN line, an adapter fitting to convert from NPT to AN is required. NPT was designed for use with thick walled pipe, typically black pipe, used in fixed structures like buildings, to handle distribution of water and natural gas. Black pipe isn’t particularly bendable, flexible or lightweight and hardly desirable for plumbing a high performance fuel system. As a result fittings that adapt NPT ports to AN line are common to allow flexible AN lines to be utilized in performance automotive fuel systems.

Unlike AN thread, which is straight, NPT ports and fittings are both tapered. NPT male to female adapters start loose, threading easily but get tight and harder to turn well before the hex touches the port. When threaded together, the NPT design creates a wedging effect, binding the thread in order to seal. The use of a thread sealant is common and required with NPT, as it does not consistently create a positive seal on it’s own, like an O-Ring configuration. It’s common to see a number of threads showing on the adapter fitting when NPT is sufficiently tight, making NPT assemblies bulkier and less clean appearing than a similar AN assembly.

NPT ports are commonly adapted to AN lines, but the NPT size designation is confusing, identifying the pipe I.D. rather than the O.D. Black pipe has a much thicker wall than hard line, so the pipe/port O.D. is much larger than the NPT size would seem to indicate. For example, a 3/8” NPT port will have an outside diameter of 5/8”, allowing for a wall thickness of 1/8” (0.125”). As a result, NPT port sizes allow use of a one step larger AN line than their indicated size would seem to support. As long as the wall of the adapter fitting is not overly thick, the following NPT Port to AN adapters will provide a common I.D. throughhole:

Maximum AN line for NPT port size:
1/4” NPT is compatible with up to -6 AN (3/8” hard line)
3/8” NPT is compatible with up to –8 AN (1/2” hard line)
1/2” NPT is compatible with up to –10 AN (5/8” hard line)
3/4” NPT is compatible with up to -16 AN (1” hard line)

Adapter fittings are available for connecting larger than recommended AN lines to the above NPT ports. Beware, the inside diameter of the adapter fitting will necessarily be smaller on the NPT side, creating a flow restriction that many racers and hotrod enthusiasts overlook. This is a poor practice and should be avoided, but when no alternative is available, consider sourcing a steel NPT to AN adapter from a good hydraulic supplier. Steel adapters will have a thinner wall than aluminum, due to the increase in material strength, leaving a larger I.D. to support higher flow on the too small, NPT side of the adapter.


Rick
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby grumpyvette » October 12th, 2012, 8:26 am

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=211

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=635

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1939

http://www.duccutters.com/ConvertionCha ... bzyv5ytbP1

Image

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... uIoAa5RRBs

Image

for carbs you need consistent fuel flow at 5-6 psi, fuel injection usually requires a 40psi plus fuel pressure, the line size and the fuel pressure regulator will have a big effect on your results, theres some threads and calculators above that will help, generally a 110-150 gph pump and 3/8" / AN#6 lines minimum ,works fine up to about 550- 575hp,with carbs above that Id suggest a 1/2 AN#8 line
(Ive always used AN#8 and a 150 GPH rated pump on carb equipped application's for street/strip cars")
and selecting a fuel pump that can supply at least 50% more flow than the carb or injectors can flow to compensate for the flow restrictions the filter and lines etc. provide.
keep in mind aluminum fuel lines are far weaker than stainless fuel lines but stainless fittings require a 37 degree flare
I generally run hard lines for fuel supply and return, but I have run flex lines inside 3/4" emt electrical tubing inside the frame rails ,except for the last 18" between fuel pressure regulator and carb. I buy flex and or hard lines at the local hydraulic supply after I measure very carefully then have them fabricate the lines.. with the correct ends fabricated on the ends of the lines.
Ive found , running 3/4" EMT tubing which is fairly easy to bend then slipping flex line thru it to be a good system, and yes before you ask youll want to have two because youll have a RETURN LINE , but having two hard lines and skipping the flex inside the protective outer EMT, takes up less room
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » October 12th, 2012, 11:19 am


I thought the AN-ORB connection needed a picture to fully explain why it would be better.

You can see there is NO teflon sealer needed when you put this connection together.

AN-ORB Connection01.jpg
AN-ORB Connection02.jpg


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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » October 12th, 2012, 4:09 pm


I'm not completely sure, but I don't think you can just buy one of these AN-ORB (O-Ring Boss) fittings and screw it into another component unless it is also made to accept the O-Ring. Therefore you have to buy fuel pumps and pressure regulators that are made to specifically accept an ORB fitting.

AN-ORB Connection03.gif


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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » October 12th, 2012, 5:35 pm


I went thru the calculation to see what size fuel pump I needed. You can go thru the calculation
or you can use the chart provided to get the flow requirements. The chart shows the flow needed
at the carburetor, not the free flow that you most often see from the manufactures. The pump
should be located as close to the fuel tank as possible and therefore there are several restriction
to the flow long before it gets to the carburetor. It's possible to calculate the pressure drop for
every type of fitting and line size if you can find it from the manufacture, but good luck.

There are so many variables involved in the final flow needed in each system that the graph will
be plenty close to put you in the ball park. Some of the variables are; line size, number and type
of fittings (30°, 60°, 90° & 180° fittings), even what brand you buy makes a difference because
not all have the same internal sizes.

Most of the time I see where they take the calculated flow requirement and then double it, then
buy the next bigger fuel pump rating using the free flow number.

Using my example of 500 HP and a BSFC of 0.55 lbs/hphr I would need a pump that puts out
43.4 gal/hr (GPH). Then double that and you get 86.8 GPH.

So to be on the safe side I would buy pump rated at 110 GPH or greater.


Fuel-Pump-Flow-Requirements.jpg


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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby grumpyvette » October 13th, 2012, 8:08 am

keep in mind that many fuel pumps for carburetors, are rated for flow against ZERO back pressure, youll get a huge reduction in total fuel flow against a 6psi back pressure thats almost standard in a carb equipped application, vs pumping against zero back pressure.this can be tested this is less common with EFI fuel pumps that are generally rated at a set back pressure.
many problems I see with restricted flow,where its obvious the system goes LEAN, that are not related to simple adjustments like float levels or injector size, are related to the FEED or suction side restrictions of the fuel system , many guys seem to assume a stock fuel system works just fine when you boost power levels significantly, and in some cases they can, but if your adding several hundred horse power its unrealistic to expect the stock system to keep up with the increased demand without serious upgrades
pressure is a measure of the RESISTANCE to FLOW


viewtopic.php?f=55&t=211&p=23798&hilit=fuel+cell#p23798

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=635

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=733&p=1030&hilit=fuel+cell#p1030

http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm

http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumptests.htm

http://www.turbofast.com.au/racefuel3.html

http://www.custom-car.us/efi/fuel-supply.aspx

http://watermanracing.com/Pages/flowbench2.html

http://realstreetperformance.com/store/ ... est-5.html

http://www.gmtuners.com/flow/index.htm
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » October 15th, 2012, 9:50 am


Trying to decide if aluminum tubing will work with today's fuels containing Ethanol.
There is certainly some problem when aluminum and ethanol come in contact with
each other, but it maybe very small when using 10% - 15% ethanol.

I can't find a supplier of 1/2" steel fuel line, so if you know of one please post a link.

I need to run a 1/2" return line and I also thought I would use 1/2" supply line to the
100 micron pre-filter and then to the pump. After that it goes inside the frame, so
I was planning on staying with the 3/8" steel line that's already there and inside
the frame. The frame is constructed from is 2" x 3" square tubing.

AluminumFuelLine01.jpg
AluminumFuelLine02.jpg


http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/sh ... p?t=197352
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp ... ewall.html
http://www.ethanolmt.org/switch.html

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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » October 16th, 2012, 10:22 am


I like the Aeromotive pump since it's connections use the ORB or O-Ring Boss, therefore it
does not require any kind of sealer on the fuel line connections. But for the price, I could
use the NPT that the other two pumps use.

All 3 pumps put out 110 or 140 GPH free flow, so all of them should be able to meet the
flow requirement of 500 HP.

Does anyone have any input about the features which would ultimately help me decided
which pump to purchase. Can I justify spending $114/$144 more for the Aeromotive
pump over the Summit or Holley?

Summit ....... $ 97.95
Holley ......... $ 127.95
Aeromotive ... $ 241.95


Aeromotive Fuel Pump 11213.JPG
Holley Fuel Pump 12-812-1.JPG
Summit Fuel Pump SUM-G3136-0.JPG


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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby grumpyvette » October 16th, 2012, 3:13 pm

GREAT POST!


heres some related info, keep in mind many parts are imported and quality varies a great deal as do prices, but price does not always indicate the level of quality, ID also point out that steel hydraulic/fuel line has far greater strength than aluminum line, and stainless tubing is far stronger than aluminum, but stainless won,t generally flare to much more than 37 degrees without cracking


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MRG-130P/?rtype=10

http://www.skipwhiteperformance.com/det ... JM-1054KIT

https://dragtimes.com/parts/MR-GASKET-E ... 42215.html

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dl ... 0496542215

http://holley.com/712-815-1.asp

http://www.mpsracing.com/products/MPS/FuelPumps.asp

http://shop.brutespeed.com/Magnafuel-43 ... l-4303.htm
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » October 17th, 2012, 9:27 am


Grumpy,

Have you had a chance to use any of these pumps ??? Did you find any of them to
be so cheap that it would leave you stranded the first week of operation ???

I've been looking at so many pumps, that I failed to see that Aeromotive has the
very same pump as the 11213, except that it uses 3/8" NPT connections 11203.
It costs $52 less.

BTW, don't believe everything you read on a online retail site. Summit specs the
Aeromotive 11203 pump at 150 GPH (should be 140 GPH), it's the very same pump
as the 11213 Aeromotive pump at 140 GPH. If it's critical, it's best to confirm
ratings on the actual manufactures website.

NOTE: Prices are Summit.com prices.


Aeromotive Fuel Pump 11203.JPG
Aeromotive Fuel Pump 11213.JPG


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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby bytor » October 19th, 2012, 10:42 am

Im on a fuel pump quest as well. Considering going with an EFI setup for a 383 build I’m working on and have a fuel delivery question. Has anyone had success running an inline fuel pump (Walbro GLS392) with a top feed tank? I have a 78 vette and I'm seeing mixed reviews of gravity feed pumps with the top feed tanks. How big of an issue is this for a street car? I have seen some recommendations to use a "Ford" in line pump because it will suck as well as push. The other recommendation is to use an 82 vette fuel pickup with an intank efi pump. The second option seems easier as I wouldent have to butcher the stock fuel line?
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » October 19th, 2012, 11:32 am


What size are the fuel lines ??? If they are not 3/8", then you would need to replace them anyway.

Rick
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby bytor » October 20th, 2012, 8:02 am

Indycars wrote:
What size are the fuel lines ??? If they are not 3/8", then you would need to replace them anyway.



Yep, stock is 3/8 tank to pump and 1/4 return. So I'm thinking run a new 3/8 line for the fuel supply and use the stock 3/8 line for the return.
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » October 23rd, 2012, 11:48 am

bytor wrote:Im on a fuel pump quest as well. Considering going with an EFI setup for a 383 build I’m working on and have a fuel delivery question.

You are considering a EFI setup for a carburetor engine???

Has anyone had success running an inline fuel pump (Walbro GLS392) with a top feed tank? I have a 78 vette and I'm seeing mixed reviews of gravity feed pumps with the top feed tanks. How big of an issue is this for a street car?

Most electric pumps are of the VANE type, which don't pull fuel nearly as well as they push the fuel. When you say "gravity feed pumps" are you referring to a VANE type pump ???
VanePump01.jpg


I have seen some recommendations to use a "Ford" in line pump because it will suck as well as push.

What type of pump is the ford inline pump ???


The other recommendation is to use an 82 vette fuel pickup with an intank efi pump. The second option seems easier as I wouldn't have to butcher the stock fuel line?

Again, is this going to work with a carburetor. EFI operates at a much higher pressure, but maybe it's just a matter of using the right pressure regulator.

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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby bytor » October 23rd, 2012, 4:19 pm

Indycars wrote:
bytor wrote:Im on a fuel pump quest as well. Considering going with an EFI setup for a 383 build I’m working on and have a fuel delivery question.

You are considering a EFI setup for a carburetor engine???
Yes, I have been looking at the all the TBI systems out there and realy like the Powerjection III w/spark control setup. I know a well tuned carb is hard to beat but my computer/electronics geek side is coming out. I'm proably stick with the carb initialy and go EFI as a 2nd. step.

Has anyone had success running an inline fuel pump (Walbro GLS392) with a top feed tank? I have a 78 vette and I'm seeing mixed reviews of gravity feed pumps with the top feed tanks. How big of an issue is this for a street car?

Most electric pumps are of the VANE type, which don't pull fuel nearly as well as they push the fuel. When you say "gravity feed pumps" are you referring to a VANE type pump ???
I'm probably referring to it incorrectly. My basic understanding is that most in line EFI pumps don't do a good job of pulling fuel. As you mentioned above. So, getting fuel out of a top feed tank could be a problem. It seems that if you keep the pump close to the tank and below it, you can get gravity/siphon feed to work.

[/color]I have seen some recommendations to use a "Ford" in line pump because it will suck as well as push.

What type of pump is the ford inline pump ???
I believe is basicaly a stock 88 Ford truck external pump. I don't know enough about it but I've seen it refernced on the Corvette forum. Supposedly it does a good job of pulling fuel out of the tank.


The other recommendation is to use an 82 vette fuel pickup with an intank efi pump. The second option seems easier as I wouldn't have to butcher the stock fuel line?

Again, is this going to work with a carburetor. EFI operates at a much higher pressure, but maybe it's just a matter of using the right pressure regulator.
If I go EFI I'll probably get one of these http://www.ecklerscorvette.com/corvette-fuel-sending-unit-without-pump-1982.html and use a 45PSI/255LPH in tank pump. Then use the stock supply line as a return and run a new supply line with the appropriate filter. This way I'm not butchering the stock stuff and could switch back to a carb easily.

Last edited by bytor on October 23rd, 2012, 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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