Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System



Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby grumpyvette » December 14th, 2012, 8:06 pm

in all aplications that reduction in cross sectional area MIGHT BE a problem but in this case I can,t see it being an issue

BTW LOVE THE CLEAR PICTURES, thats always a great part of your posts, that helps show the details and areas your working on.

http://store.fedhillusa.com/britishgirl ... tings.aspx
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » December 14th, 2012, 8:13 pm

grumpyvette wrote:in all applications that reduction in cross sectional area MIGHT BE a problem but in this case I can,t see it being an issue


Well now you are confusing me!

All this time you kept recommending 1/2 inch line when I had some 3/8 inch already
installed, but now something less 1/2 inch is Ok. Could you explain why?

Rick
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby grumpyvette » December 15th, 2012, 8:05 am

I don,t think it will be an issue because your earlier potential use of 3/8" fuel lines would have probably worked, it would just have been marginal, at the power levels you should expect, or might eventually reach with a few minor upgrades, now that the rest of the systems been upgraded to AN#8 or 1/2" . that single potential restrictions not as likely to cause issues, would upgrading the valve size to a true AN#8 be a good idea?, yes it would, but its also not likely to matter much at anything under 500-550 hp as thats usually the max you can reliably feed thru a 3/8" fuel line feeding a carburetor before the restriction to flow becomes a significant issue. keep in mind the same RATIO of restriction would generally happen if you had been using all 3/8" fuel lines and fittings so if you used 3/8" or AN#6 theres a strong chance that an internal fitting would have restricted flow to less than what a strait section of AN#6 would have provided, so by upgrading to AN#8 the internal fitting is far less restrictive, in your current fuel supply.
the use of AN#8 or 1/2" lines just removes any potential for the fuel system to prove to be a restriction to power to at least 700 hp, so any time Ive build a combo that MIGHT have the fuel lines become a restriction its a good idea to make sure its not going to be an issue.
remember I said that early in this thread.

RELATED INFO

http://www.smartfireinjectors.com/fuelflowchart.html

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=211&p=247#p247

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1939

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=635

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=109

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1200

VERY INTERESTING ADDITION TO THE POTENTIAL FUEL SYSTEM DESIGN
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ ... rvoir.aspx

grumpyvette wrote:while an engine like the one built here for the T-bucket can get by with AN#6 LINES (3/8") as your not likely to exceed the potential flow restriction limitations of that size fuel line, and you only need about 100 gph pump and about 6 psi, IVE ALWAYS PREFERRED THE LARGER AN#8 fuel line size and an ELECTRIC fuel pump that puts out a minimum of 140 gph mounted back as close too the fuel cell or fuel tank,and as low as possible and used with a return style regulator.
my current EFI 383 has a walpro 255 that provides 40 psi but uses 3/8" lines , and it will supply the required fuel to maintain about 500 hp.
keep in mind Im using an extensively ported stealth ram base with a custom plenum and throttle body and and 36 lb injectors on my 383 SBC
on my 496 BIG BLOCK I found the larger size fuel lines and larger pump with a fuel cell installed mandatory, as the smaller lines allowed the engine power to drop noticeably by the time I had reached the 100 ft from launch point, swapping to the larger fuel pump helped noticeably


viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1939&p=5137#p5137

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=211

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=4381

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=635

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5731

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=733&p=6470&hilit=fuel+cell#p6470
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby mathd » December 15th, 2012, 9:10 am

using a small ID for a short lenght is not as critical as using a full lenght fuel line of smaller ID. lenght also play a role... The longer the line is the bigger it has to be(i dont have it on hand but there was a calculator about flow restriction, it has to do with ID and lenght had a hudge effect). so for a short area like this valve(like 1 inch long?) it dont matter if its 1/8 smaller.

just like a 3/16 ID tubing has a 3psi restriction per foot(with maximum gph/flow)... so if its half a foot.. or 50 foot it make a hella difference.
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » December 15th, 2012, 12:07 pm


I'm not going to go back and look, but based on my memory of this thread, you always seemed
to be recommending 1/2 inch lines. I understand now that you recommend 1/2 inch, but 3/8 inch
lines and fittings would work but not what you would prefer to see when given a choice.

Does that put it the right perspective?

Rick
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby mathd » December 15th, 2012, 12:18 pm

i use 3/8 line with quality fittings and they are fine. i did only because i was too lazy to take the fuel tank off and weld some 1/2 bung. otherwise i would have went with 1/2.
Now if i want to upgrade and say use nitrous.. i dont think 3/8 will handle that.
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » December 15th, 2012, 1:03 pm

mathd wrote:i use 3/8 line with quality fittings and they are fine. i did only because i was too lazy to take the fuel tank off and weld some 1/2 bung. otherwise i would have went with 1/2.
Now if i want to upgrade and say use nitrous.. i dont think 3/8 will handle that.


I was having a case of the lazies about pulling the 3/8 inch line in the frame, I understand that feeling! :D

Rick
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby bytor » December 19th, 2012, 4:35 pm

Check this out, another option for those converting to EFI from carb.

Edelbrock Universal Fuel Reservoir Kit (3605)
"This Universal Fuel Reservoir Kit is designed to provide the necessary high fuel pressure required for EFI applications in vehicles equipped with low pressure carbureted fuel systems. It's a complete self-contained system that can be installed under the hood of any vehicle easily. The unique design of this system allows it to deliver a constant fuel pressure of 60 psi, which is necessary to operate an EFI system and will not require a fuel return line. This kit is intended to be used with the existing factory fuel tank and low pressure pump. The kit includes the fuel reservoir tank with high pressure pump and regulator pre-installed, mounting bracket, hose, fittings and all of the necessary hardware for installation."

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/efi/estreet_intro.shtml At the bottom...

3605.jpg
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My 383 build photos
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » March 13th, 2013, 9:16 am


While looking for something else, I ran across this at Grainger's. Looks to
be available at many industrial supplies, probably with better prices.

You can get from 3 to 10 outlets and outlets at 90° apart, so lots
of flexibility in it configurations. Mounting holes are already drilled.

http://www.zorotools.com/g/Aluminum%20M ... /00114046/

Manifold01.JPG
Manifold02.JPG



There are these in aluminum and brass for only $7.81 and $10.71
with 3/8" Inlet & Outlet.

http://www.zorotools.com/g/3-Way%20Hose ... /00061014/

Manifold04.JPG
Manifold03.JPG


Lots of possibilities here:

http://www.zorotools.com/s/?q=manifolds&1.x=0&1.y=0


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Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » July 28th, 2013, 5:47 pm


I'm concerned about the time I have to get the TBucket running this summer. So
for now I'm going to keep the old fuel system up to the carburetor feed system.
If I get to drive for 3-4 weeks, I will be most excited!!!! I NEED to to see how the
new engine and transmission work, along with a multitude of other thing work.
Then I can plan my winter projects.

So the following is what I must do to mate the new system to the old system.
Everything up to the inlet to the dual feed lines for the Demon will be the old
system. I do fear the comments from Sir Master Grump!!!...I wonder if he
has my address ??????


I cut several length of 1/2" wood dowel rod to help me determine the length of
the 3/8" fuel line down to the AN Tee fittings. I finally settled on 2-1/2". The 3/8"
fuel line came from O'Reilys with the fitting already on, I just cut the line to get
their fittings off. Then I could put a 37° flare.

FP01_CarbFuelInlet01_4494.jpg


I was very surprised and happy how the 1/2" wood dowel worked, I could slide it
thru the Tee fittings with just a slight drag. Which meant that the Tee AN fittings
would stay in place without rotating while I did my work.

FP01_CarbFuelInlet02_4495.jpg


I figured out the two 3/8" lines to carb float bowel needed to be 2-1/2" long, flared
them with my Rigid flaring tool and connected them......then I could screw it all
together with the 1/2 wood dowel and measure the distance between the AN Tees.
This 1/2" line will be stainless steel so I can polish it to a chrome like shine.

FP01_CarbFuelInlet03_4500.jpg

FP01_CarbFuelInlet04_4502.jpg

FP01_CarbFuelInlet05_4509.jpg


If you are interested, this is the SS tubing I used. It is annealed to a B90 hardest,
I will be looking at this with ALOT of interest when I pressurize the the fuel system
the first time to see if I have any leaks. The SS should be much harder then the
aluminum AN fitting, so it will be harder to make a good seal.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XN ... UTF8&psc=1


Part Number s0500028t316sal 6'

Material Type Stainless Steel 316L

Outside Diameter 1/2 inches

Outside Diameter Tolerance +/-.005 inches

Inside Diameter 0.444 inches

Length 72 inches

Wall Thickness 0.028 inches

Wall Thickness Tolerance +/- 0.0049 inches

Specification Met ASTM A213 and A269

Temper Annealed

Hardness B90 Max Annealed

Compatible Material Air, natural gas, oil water

Upper Temperature Range 1500 Degrees Fahrenheit

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Rick
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby grumpyvette » July 28th, 2013, 9:05 pm

YOUR DOING A TOP QUALITY JOB, I doubt one in a hundred guys have done as well , I certainly don,t see it done as well very often

Image

Image
the longer those 3/8" feed connection lines are the more leverage they have on the seal, and vibration will tend to effect the durability, obviously check for linkage clearance or carb mounting issues, I,d also point out you should have about a foot of flexible AN#8 fuel line at some point between the fire wall and carb to isolate and prevent fuel line damage from engine movement and heat and cooling
Image
Image
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby 87vette81big » July 28th, 2013, 10:09 pm

You will be Ok driving with the old 3/8 inch fuel line system Rick.
But likely will see a 2-3 psi drop in fuel pressure WOT in 3rd & 4th gear.
So don't race hard till you upgrade to 1/2 inch fuel line throughout .
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby Indycars » July 29th, 2013, 7:23 am

grumpyvette wrote:the longer those 3/8" feed connection lines are the more leverage they
have on the seal, and vibration will tend to effect the durability,
obviously check for linkage clearance or carb mounting issues


I see your point and will try to incorporate that into the system this winter.

This winter when I complete the fuel system, can the pressure regulator be
mounted to the engine and function properly? Wondering if the vibration
will have an effect on the regulator? I don't have fenders or any framework
in front of the engine to mount to.
Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Component Selection & Design for 500 HP Fuel System

Postby grumpyvette » July 29th, 2013, 7:28 am

you can easily fabricate or buy a bracket to mount the fuel pressure regulator on that bolts to the intake manifold mount bolts, or valve covers

Image

Image
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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