header gaskets



header gaskets

Postby grumpyvette » January 17th, 2009, 2:34 pm

if the header flange is strait and flat and your using a decent header gasket youll rarely have problems with any material,(personally I prefer the copper ones) and if youve coated the bolt or stud threads in the heads with ANTI-SEIZE like you should have, almost any decent 6"-8" box end wrench can be used to snug the bolts or nuts on the studs up firmly.
but at times youll want those header bolts or socket head cap screw bolts
due to clearance or tool access issues, but if you can use STUDS as they provide a better clamp force and are far less likely to screw up the threaded holes in the cylinder heads
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STAR LOCK WASHERS GO BETWEEN THE CLAMP WASHER AND STUD NUTS
this is very common on some heads and the brand of header , its gasket flange design and the type of exhaust gasket used effects your results, paper or paper with metallic foil composite gaskets tend to burn thru if not 100% evenly clamped, as the least leak allows burn thru,copper header gaskets and use of proper bolts on the header flange tends to help, anti seize on the threads helps
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MRG-3409/?rtype=10
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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-111405/
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http://www.stage8.com

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=ARP%2D400%2D1101&autoview=sku

I would strongly suggest BOTH stainless bolts and the use of ANTI SEIZE on the threads

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2DSP1502&N=700+324400+115&autoview=sku

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=700+115+317370&D=317370


I think youll find that in some applications socket head cap screws are easier to use/install
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if your having a difficult time accessing the header bolts due to wrench or socket clearance issures

try 12 point metric sockets also, once thier out out replace all the bolts with stainless socket head cap screws, and use anti seize on the threads, with star lock washers under thier heads
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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: header gaskets

Postby lsejlowe » April 3rd, 2009, 10:31 am

so what's the best source for socket head cap screws for headers? I don't think I'll be able to find SS socket heads at local hardware shops, but maybe the typical black oxide coating will be good enough?
Black '69 Corvette - aint no show car, but she'll still turn heads
Stock 350 with side pipes, M21 close ratio 4-spd, 3.70 rear gears
best 1/4 mile run: 14.39 @ 99 mph
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Re: header gaskets

Postby grumpyvette » April 3rd, 2009, 11:09 am

black oxide coated work ok, but many hardware stores do have stainless 3/8" NC 1.25" cap screws


READ THIS
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=4541&p=12105&hilit=header+gaskets#p12105

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=4541&p=13522&hilit=copper+header#p13522
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: header gaskets

Postby JumpRun » July 26th, 2009, 11:29 am

Have a header install coming, so I thought this might be a good post to get a sanity check.

I have a set of LG Pro long tube headers and went with their recommendation to use the stock LS1 gaskets rather than the LS6 gasket, (I have an LS6-2002 Z06). I understand this is due to the port size relative to the header as opposed to the stock manifold.

The headers have nice thick flanges, and I've yet to get header bolts. I've read some people just reuse the stock ones. I've yet to get any but have been leaning towards some ARP SS ones, probably from summit. So I'm still pondering stock or aftermarket.

Being in California I'm stuck with the smog tests, I have high flow converters with the new system and a good shop for smog checks so I just need to pass the computer. I was thinking with a bit over 65K miles on the car new O2 sensors might be a good Idea while I'm at it. Do these things wear? I have only had it tested once and it was fine, but I'm on a two year cycle now so I'm considering new ones. How about brands, should I stay with stock GM sensors ? Plus there are 4 of them and I've seen some people say the block some off? I do plan on getting a tune after the install but don't want to deal with any more codes than I have to as well as keep all the stock smog stuff intact. I'm aware that the location change on the converter is bumping the rules as is not having a CARB aproval, but I'm not worried about a visual inspection, just the sniffer. I'll also be running my stock titanium mufflers.

Comments and suggestions welcomed.

Thanks in advance.
gb
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Re: header gaskets

Postby grumpyvette » July 26th, 2009, 12:25 pm

If your forced to replace the sensors, most guys prefer the bosch sensors

http://www.boschautoparts.com/Products/OxygenSensors/

as they seem to last a long time,
personally Id suggest pulling codes before the test just to see if any sensors defective, and only replacing them IF necessary because they are not dirt cheap. Id also point out that a bit of ANTI-seize on the threads makes removal far easier after years of heat cycles,

as to the bolts, measure the threaded hole depth in the heads and get bolts that have a 3/4-7/8 of depth, of thread engagement
example
if the threaded holes in the heads measured 1" deep the header flange is 3/8" thick and the gaskets are .120, (1.495" total depth) that's ideally requires a bolt that's about 1.25"-1.375" long because a 1.5" bolt might bottom out and strip threads before the correct clamp loads are applied, and BOLTS generally come in 1/4" length increases in sizes, in that range of smaller diam.
keep in mind the bolt diam. is about 3/8" so anything exceeding 1.5 times its diam. to twice its diam. ( 3/8" +3/8"=3/4") in thread engagement or more is unlikely to strip in aluminum PROVIDED the clamp loads are NOT applied until the threads almost fully engaged, and its not cross threaded, now in an ideal world you use STUDS because you thread those to just short of full depth, and aluminum is softer than steel , and requires more thread depth, and you install those finger tight for full thread engagement before ANY clamping loads are applied and if the threaded length were 1.5" or 1.75" the full thread carry's the clamp loads regardless as theres a nut applying the clamp loads and the total stud length is not as critical
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: header gaskets

Postby JumpRun » July 27th, 2009, 11:38 am

Thanks,
I have considered studs rather than bolts but recall reading about difficulty getting the headers over them.

So if the O2's aren't broke don't fix'em then. I've been on the anti seize for a long time, great stuff.



Thanks again.
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Re: header gaskets

Postby grumpyvette » July 27th, 2009, 12:38 pm

studs are much superior to bolts, and they can be installed just like bolts by use of two nuts installed on the last outer threads on the stud,and tightened against each other to allow a wrench to thread them into the heads giving full thread contact and then the two nuts are loosened, and one tightened against the header flange to get the clamp loads correct.
OR there are studs that are designed to use an allen key for installation, That way you avoid the clearance issue of studs sticking out of the heads during the installation but have the full advantage of studs extra strength.
yes its a bit more work but its generally much stronger also and less likely to strip threads in expensive heads, because no clamp loads are applied until full thread engagement is achieved, naturally the correct thread and length must be selected, and the studs must be screwed in to max depth with the threads coated with ANTI-SEIZE COMPOUND, before any clamp loads are applied
Ive used the standard cap screw bolts with washers and Anti-seize on the threads and no lock washer and copper exhaust gaskets and have had zero issues

Ive always found the STAR LOCK WASHERS, under the nuts , and used with the studs was all that's required, on the rare sets of headers on some cars that do occasionally seem to need to be re-tightened occasionally, I generally don,t get overly concerned with exact torque loads I just tighten them about as tight as I can get the nuts with a short box end wrench and have not had any problems
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http://www.alliedbolt.com/threadedstudsandrod.html

http://www.reidsupply.com/GrpResults.as ... 021997&bi=

http://www.jegs.com/i/Spectre/865/4665/ ... tId=756827

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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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studs or locking bolts for headers

Postby DorianL » February 7th, 2011, 7:19 am

Getting my headers on are a real pain. Lining up the bolts are one thing but tightening is a pain too. I need to tighten them all gradually else they interfere with the primaries. So I am thinking these:
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Tho' I'd hate to see them break off in my heads...

I also HATE header bolts coming loose as the ALWAYS seem to do with me. So on other hand, I am thinking about these:
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What do you guys think?

D.
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Re: studs or locking bolts for headers

Postby grumpyvette » February 7th, 2011, 7:40 am

ease of tool access to the studs or bolts tends to be the deciding factor in many installations,socket head cap screws with a coat of anti-seize paste on the threads are a common practice as they allow the use of the ball head allen drivers that make access in tight confines a bit easier.
A set of stainless studs can also be used in some applications as studs put a great deal less wear and stress on the threaded holes in the heads,because they are threaded into place to full depth , with some anti-seize on the threads,BEFORE any tightening stress loads are applied, this is a huge factor in prolonged durability in softer aluminum heads especially when the holes in the headers are not exactly aligned, you might be amazed at how ofter even quality headers have one or more bolt holes that are a bit out of alignment, , like most guys Ive always assumed headers should just bolt up with a decent gasket between the header flange and the heads but in many cases the header flange is a bit warped or the holes need a bit of tweaking like having a slightly larger drill size run thru the hole to allow quick easy installation.
if youve got the room studs at least on the two end locations to make installing the headers far easier is a good idea
many guys use bolts to DRAW a warped header firmly against a head, this puts a great deal of stress on the threads and in many cases the threads not in to at least 1.5 times its diameter before the stress loads are applied so you get mis-aligned or stripped threads in the heads
its really best to use a clean-up bottom tap to clean threads and some solvent and high pressure air to blow out debris, before test threading the studs or bolts BEFORE trying to install headers.


http://www.imperialinc.com/pdf/I_Tap&DieChart.pdf
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http://www.harborfreight.com/air-blow-g ... 42939.html

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EAR-D026ERL/?rtype=10
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viewtopic.php?f=79&t=1046&p=1951&hilit=+copper+header#p1951

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1262&p=6142&hilit=taps+clean#p6142

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=559&p=713&hilit=+copper+header#p713
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: studs or locking bolts for headers

Postby DorianL » February 7th, 2011, 11:33 am

Hmmm, were I to use studs... is there anyway to prevent them from working themselves loose? Seems to me I am always retightening header bolts...
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Re: studs or locking bolts for headers

Postby grumpyvette » February 7th, 2011, 11:55 am

When I use studs on headers, Ive never had any problem at all, but then I use star lock nuts and copper exhaust gaskets,with star locks under the nuts, and put a dab of gasket cement on the nuts threads to keep the nuts secure, if I find they are coming loose
Ive generally used studs on the outer two exhaust bolts and use those two locations to line up the gasket and headers, Ive used studs on any and all locations that will allow their use regarding clearance during any header install, because I feel studs are superior, but on a corvette clearance issues prevent you from using just studs and theres at least 2-4 locations per side that require bolts, on those locations I prefer stainless socket head cap screws , because its generally easier to get an Allen key into the bolts than a socket around the bolt head,again due to clearance access
this is very common on some heads and the brand of header , its gasket flange design and the type of exhaust gasket used effects your results, paper or paper with metalic foil composite gaskets tend to burn thru if not 100% evenly clamped, as the least leak allows burn thru,copper header gaskets and use of proper bolts on the header flange tends to help, anti seize on the threads helps
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MRG-3409/?rtype=10
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MR GASKET MAKES RECESSED HEAD HEADER BOLTS MANY GUYS PREFER
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-111405/
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http://www.almabolt.com/pages/catalog/washers/star.htm

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=700&p=973&hilit=sealant+silicone#p973
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viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4306&p=11353&hilit=safety+wire#p11353
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: studs or locking bolts for headers

Postby grumpyvette » May 31st, 2011, 7:04 am

[quote ]Hey GRUMPYVETTE?
I got the headers mounted, problem is there is always one header bolt that wants to go in crooked, as the holes in the header flange are not correctly located, maybe I have to drill the holes in the header flange a little bigger,[/quote]

safety wiring bolts works
Safety wiring works equally well on nuts or bolts.

http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools ... 45341.html

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read full caption

YES! its very common to find you need to drill out ALL the bolt holes a bit larger in the less expensive header brands , and even some of the high end brands at times ,simply because the heat of welding tends to warp the flange just a bit distorting the flange, its no big thing in most cases you simply find and use the next larger drill size and a quick clean-up pass thru each hole does the trick, youll also find that the use of studs or cap screw bolts, and copper header gaskets tends to make the job easier

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IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: header gaskets

Postby DorianL » June 29th, 2011, 4:39 am

Why do you prefer copper? Are they less prone to leakage?
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Re: header gaskets

Postby LEJ ZO6 » June 29th, 2011, 7:12 am

I tried all kinds of exhaust header gaskets when I raced the C3 with SCCA.

Spent a lot of money on gaskets because we removed the exhaust frequently.

Finally an old racer told me to try the new high temperature silicone sealant between the header and the head and I wouldn't need to buy gaskets any more. I tried it. It worked great. I never bought exhaust header gaskets again.

I'm not sure how long this would last on a street car but it would last several weekends at the track before the headers had to be removed again.
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Re: studs or locking bolts for headers

Postby grumpyvette » September 8th, 2013, 10:28 am

I got an email,
bob wrote:" GRUMPY, I was replacing my header gaskets and the bolt holding the dip stick bracket to the head sheared off when I tried to remove it, any ideas?"


busting off or cross threading a bolt is a common problem, that takes time, experience and a few cheap tools to fix, but obviously you need to know how to proceed, these links will help
if you can get access with a drill , at the correct angle to drill out the bolt center line ,once the headers been removed, you can use a penetrating solvent/ lubricant spray to loosen the threads , and repeated heat and cooling cycles and an easy out reverse twist drill to remove the broken bolt.
if you can,t get access you might need to remove the intake and head to do the repair so keep that in mind, as an option rather than getting lazy and butchering the job if you can,t get access,(which Ive seen many guys do in the past) because its likely to become a much bigger, and more expensive repair issue if you screw up the repair, trying to avoid doing it correctly, by removing the head if thats the only way to get access


BOB, if you need help give me a call, I,ll be free later today

these links will help
http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=807&p=18280&hilit=bolt+rusted#p18280

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=173&p=207&hilit=+bolts+grade#p207

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=837&p=1264&hilit=taps#p1264

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=1264&p=6141&hilit=taps#p6141

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4868&p=13372&hilit=bolts+grade#p13372
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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