Franzinator Air Dryer



Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby Indycars » January 21st, 2012, 5:00 pm


Since I'm thinking about spraying the Por15 Engine Enamel paint, I need an air dryer. Has anyone built one these Franzinator ???

I'm looking at the Non-Welded version.

http://route60garage.blogspot.com/2009/ ... nator.html
http://z6.invisionfree.com/ToolBoxTalk/ ... topic=1575
http://z6.invisionfree.com/ToolBoxTalk/ ... topic=1461

Franizator01.jpg
Franizator02.jpg

I just found this article, it has the best construction pics that I've found so far.
http://sawdustandfilings.blogspot.com/2 ... nator.html

Franizator03.jpg
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby grumpyvette » January 21st, 2012, 6:06 pm

thats a VERY interesting concept ! and obviously something that any home fabricator could build
but the first thing that came to my mind is why not use a couple sections ( well maybe 3-5 8 ft lengths) of 1/2" copper pipe with a few fittings to form a heat dispensing water trap in a series of 180 degree turns mounted to the wall on the same basic principal?
let me give that some thought because I also could use some far drier air reaching tools than my current compressors supply even though I drain them before and after each use.

BTW heres a link to a thread on compressors and driers

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=24
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby Indycars » January 21st, 2012, 6:19 pm

grumpyvette wrote:interesting concept !
but the first thing that came to my mind is why not use a couple sections ( well maybe 3-5 8 ft lengths) of 1/2" copper pipe with a few fittings to form a heat dispensing water trap in a series of 180 degree turns mounted to the wall on the same basic principal?


Because copper does not radiate heat nearly like steel. Below is the best explanation I've come across, assuming this person knows what he is talking about. But I've read something similar in another forum.

I like Franzinator because it does not take up much room like a some suggestions of using a 50 foot copper coil for cooling.


http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/ge ... or-201149/

All materials emit radiation. At around room temperature, radiant transfer is low no matter what material you use. It rises to the 4th power (double the absolute temperature, in Kelvins, and you increase radiant energy by 16 fold) So t higher temperatures, you get more radiant transfer. Different materials at the same temperature radiate different amounts of energy. The ideal is called a "black body", and rougly speaking the blacker and more matte an item is, the closer it comes to a black body. Other surfaces radiate less than the ideal black body, and the ratio of actual to ideal BB radiation is called the emissivity of that material. Rusty steel's emissivity approaches 0.80. Polished copper is about 0.02 to 0.05. So to have your separator radiate heat, and to do so without any water cooling, steel should be significantly better than copper.

Copper, however, kick's steels butt in conductive heat transfer. So if you have a cold shop, and depending upon how hot your AC exhaust is, a simple Cu pipe might work as well.
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby Indycars » January 21st, 2012, 6:28 pm

Another principle at play here has also been discussed maybe a thousand times when talking about intake systems and wet flow.

You get the air and water going down at high speeds, then you make a quick turn and the heavier water can't make the turn. But the air can and it goes out the top of the dryer.

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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby Indycars » January 24th, 2012, 6:48 pm

I've started ordering the parts I need to build the Franzinator. More to come when I get everything in house. My nephew installs sprinkler system in commercial office buildings, so he is getting the 3 bolded item below. Probably the most expensive pieces. The "2" x 18" Threaded Nipple Schedule 40" at Graingers is $21.45.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/Pipe-5P787?Pid=search


2" x 16" Threaded Nipple Schedule 40
2" x 18" Threaded Nipple Schedule 40

2" x 2" x 2" Threaded Pipe Tee
1/2" elbow threaded
1/2" x 6 Threaded Nipple
2" x 1/2" Reducing Coupling
2" x 1/4" Reducing Coupling
2" X 1/2" Reducing Bushing

1/4" Drain Cock
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby grumpyvette » January 24th, 2012, 7:05 pm

this should be very informative and interesting, especially with clear pictures, during construction and installation and a list on component cost and some results showing it works

heres a few things I found during a search

Building a NOT Welded column.

Materials
2" x 16" threaded nipple schedule 40
2" x 18" threaded nipple schedule 40
½" x 20" pipe, threaded on one end - locator
½" elbow threaded
½" x 6 threaded nipple
2" x ½" reducing coupling
2" x ¼" reducing coupling
2" X ½" reducing bushing
2" x 2" x 2" threaded pipe Tee
¼" draincoc
Epoxy glue such as JB Weld


Assembly-

Using a round file, remove sufficient material from the ½" thread of the reducing bushing to fit the ½" nipple so it will slide thru that opening. Coat the thread on one end of the nipple lightly with epoxy, and thread it handtight into the elbow. Now, located the elbow inside of the Tee.
Apply a coat of pipe dope (Pirate members will have trouble unbderstanding pipe & dope and will probably run out for their bong at this point) to one eid of the 2" x 16" pipe. It doesn't matter which end.

Hold the elbow against the back of the Tee, and screw the reducing bushing into the side of the Tee with the nipple sticking thru the bushing. Mark the nipple at the back of the reducing bushing.
Remove the bushing from the Tee temporarily, and set it aside. If you're a SFT member or a Pirate member, have an assistant hold the reducing bushing so yo don't loose it.

SFT and Pirate members should now install the special spacers available from Jonsey Supply onto the ½" locator pipe. Screw the locator pipe into the unused side of the ½" elbow, and hand tighten. Now, install the 2" x 16" pipe into the bottom side of the Tee, sliding it over the locator pipe. Thered the pipe into the Tee, being careful not to cross thread it.

Now apply a generous coating of epoxy cement to the outside of the ½" nipple from the elbow to where the nipple will exit the reducing bushing. Apply a coating of pipe dope to the threads of the reducing bushing. Index the reducing bushing over the ½" nipple coming from the elbow, and screw it into the side of the Tee.
PBB & SFT members can ask their assistant to hand them the pipe wrenches again so they don't spend the balance of the day figuring out which is the pipe wrench.

If you didn't crush the special spacers from Jonsey, the elbow will be will be discharging centered coaxially in the Tee. Allow the epoxy to set up for 24 hours. This will give you time to finish the 12 pack and truck in a fresh beer supply.

Using a good coat of pipe dope, assemble the reducing couplings onto the end of each of the nipples. The ¼" x 2 coupling goes on the 16" nipple and the ½" coupling goes on the 18" nipple. When the epoxy on the Tee assembly has set up, coat the threads with pipe dope and screw them into the Tee assembly. Remember, before threading the reducing coupling onto the 16" pipe, the locator pipe and the special alignment bushings must be removed. The 16" nipple screws into the side of the Tee where the open end of the elbow is, and the 18" nipple screws into the opposite side of the Tee assembly. Tighten all threaded joynts appropriately. If you don't know what appropriately means, contact a licensed plumber.

Place the assembled column in a vise or other holding fixture so the nipple extending thru the bushing on the side of the Tee is facing up, and apply a fillet of epoxy around the nipple. This will make it strong, just like the roll cage on your 4x4. Actually, it will probably be stronger than your 4x4. Wait another 24 hours for the epoxy to cure.

After testing, mount the Franzinator with at least a couple inches of clearance around it. Disconnect the line running from the compressor to the receiver. Install a new line from the compressor to the inlet of the column, and run a second line from the top of the column to the receiver. Both lines should have vibration reduction coils in them. Remove the plug from the bottom of the column, and install a draincoc.

Start the compressor and check all connections and lines for leaks with soapwater. If you have air leaks, you screwed up.

For the Slow Flushing Turds that inhabit SFT: A complete set of measured drawings is available from Times Press, Box 414, Retirementtown Florida for only $19.95. Send only cash and put attention Doc J on the outside of the envelope.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby Indycars » January 28th, 2012, 5:11 pm

I got everything I need now to get started. I couldn't always get the exact dimensions from the parts list provided, but it was a simple matter of buy a reducing bushing like the ones in the picture. WHITE background, Black text.

I couldn't find the 2" x 16" Nipple, but you could always buy two of the 2 x 18" Nipples. You could use as is, or maybe cut 2" off and have someone thread the end again.

FranzPartsID_1851.jpg



I removed material from the inside of the 3/4 x 1/2" reducing bushing. In my instruction that Mr Franz wrote himself, he says, to use a round file to remove the material from inside the reducing bushing so the 1/2" nipple will slide inside. That would be alot of work to remove that much material. I used my die grinder and a carbide burr, much easier.

FranzRemoveMaterial_1841.jpg


This is how the sub-assembly will look when it goes together.

FranzSubAssembly01_1846.jpg


The parts list as provided by Franz:

2" x 16" threaded nipple schedule 40
2" x 18" threaded nipple schedule 40 ... http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/Pipe-5P787?Pid=search ...... $21.45
1/2" elbow threaded .......................... http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/de ... 203&ucst=t .... $1.75
1/2" x 6 threaded nipple .................... http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/de ... 439&ucst=t ... $2.40
2" x 1/2" reducing coupling ................ http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/de ... 279&ucst=t ...... $13.84
2" x 1/4" reducing coupling ................ http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/de ... 761&ucst=t ... $26.61
2" X 1/2" reducing bushing ................ http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/Hex-Bu ... Pid=search .......... $6.42

Total cost should be about $85 + tax for the dryer. There will be other costs for the copper tubing and fitting going to the compressor.


More to come as I progress.


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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby grumpyvette » January 28th, 2012, 6:02 pm

I sure hope that works as well as your expecting it too because I've got a need for something similar and while Ive got a slightly different design idea as a basis Im sure that the basic concept should be a huge help to reducing moisture in the compressed air
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby Indycars » January 28th, 2012, 6:26 pm

grumpyvette wrote:I sure hope that works as well as your expecting it too because I've got a need for something similar and while Ive got a slightly different design idea as a basis Im sure that the basic concept should be a huge help to reducing moisture in the compressed air

Slightly different design for the Frans or a totally different type air dryer?
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby grumpyvette » January 28th, 2012, 6:42 pm

Im thinking a bit more towards use of a using a large condenser from an ICE MACHINE, as the heat exchanger element , after all its designed for rapid heat loss



HERES STUFF I FOUND ON THE WEB

Seperating compressed air from the water it is carrying is simple, in theory. The amount of water the compressed air can hold is primarily determined by the temperature of the air, the hotter the air, the more moisture it can hold.

Since the objective is to reduce the moisture content of the compressed air, cooling the air gets the job done.
The problems begin here.
Compressed air is flowing from the compressor to the tank rapidly, so you don't have a lot of time to chill it. A second problem occurrs because the air also is carrying sufficient oil from the compressor to emulsify (mayonaze) the water.
By chilling the airstream, between compressor & tank, you acheive an airstream that is carrying droplets of slop, rather than essentially steam. The water and air are still NOT seperate, and the slop wants to adhere to the inside surface of the chiller. These problems can be overcome, IF the tubes of the chiller are sufficiently sized to the airstream, and drainage is employed when the compressor shuts down. if the chiller is not drained, the slop will reduce the effectiveness of the chiller.

Now, about the idea of using an air conditioner coil,
will it chill the air stream, yes
can the chilling be enhanced using a fan, yes
HOWEVER, the fan must be installed to SUCK air thru the coil, and an inlet baffel MUST be installed between the fan and the coil, or you will have a cold spot in front of the fan, and monimal cooling.

So, now we have a stream of slop containing droplet compressed air, headed for the tank. The next goal is to seperate the slop from the compressed air. This is where the fun part comes into play. Lets look at the fruitjar. As we all know, they look pretty, cost money, and you've seen them in use everyplace, cause some engineer designed the air system, and he believed the damn catalog that said those fruitjars seperate water from compressed air. The thing we know is that no fruitjar ever seperated a drop of water from ai airstream. Even guys who paint cars in the back yard and stick the metal fruitjars in buckets of ice water don't manage to seperate water from the air stream, cause the damn fruitjars don't work.

Even though the microdroplets of slop are heavier than the air, they ain't going to fall out of an airstream that is moving faster than Moma's Buick ever did. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion!
So, how the hell do we get the slop out of the compressed air?
The easiest way is to give the slop a cold surface to hang onto. The tank on the compressor is a cold surface, so some of the slop will adhere to the inside of the tank. Of course, you really don't want it in there, and unless you have a sufficiently large tank, that allows for compressor downtime, the slop really isn't going to get a chance to hang onto the inside of the tank.
The second problem with using the tank as a slop collector is the distance between the incoming compressed air/slop and the nearest available cold spot on the tank for the slop to cling to. If you're getting the idea this isn't a good way to go, you're on the right track.

The verticle column water seperator made from 2" pipe works because it does several things at the same time.
First, it cools the air sufficiently to allow the air stream to give up the water content.
Secondly, it provides a cold surface for the slop to cling to, and requires the air stream to follow the cold path on it's way to the tank.
Third, it provides a slopwell at the bottom to collect the slop.
How efficiently the colum works is primarily determined by how much humidity is in the air being compressed, and how cold you can keep the colum.

You can also employ a secondary colum seperator downline, between the tank and air tool, and get more water out of the air. Lindsey has been doing it with sandblasters for 50 years, and it works. Lindsey's units don't work as well as they could though, cause the damn bean counters at lindsey only allow a foot of pipe where 3 feet are needed.

You can make these colums as simple or as fancy as you want to, air or water cooled, and nothing I've found in 30 years of screwing around with this idea takes more water out of compressed air.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby grumpyvette » January 29th, 2012, 6:23 pm

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby Indycars » January 30th, 2012, 9:51 am

The vortex thing is interesting. Two things against it for me. Having excess capapcity because you are dumping compressed air to the atmosphere and the noise.

This guy took it a step further and added cooling to the Franzinator with a water cooler or drinking fountain.


This was his first try.
http://sawdustandfilings.blogspot.com/2 ... rt-ii.html

Franizator04WaterCooler.jpg


This was his second try at cooling the metal tower.
http://sawdustandfilings.blogspot.com/2 ... t-iii.html

Franizator05WaterCooler.jpg



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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby Indycars » January 30th, 2012, 2:14 pm

I'm wondering if I reduced the size of piping from 1/2" to 3/8" or 1/4" right before it exists into the 2" x 16" pipe, would the reduction in pressure help release more water from the air stream.

The adapter would screw into the 1/2" Elbow, then add the 1/2" x (3/8" or 1/4") reducer by soldering.

CopperAdapter-5P025_AS01.JPG

CopperReducing-Coupling-5P195_AS01.JPG



Or would it just be a restriction to the air flow required.

Comments???



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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby grumpyvette » January 30th, 2012, 2:25 pm

you need about a 1/2" inside diam. to not restrict flow and theres not going to be a huge pressure drop as the compressed hot air enters the larger diam. 2" tube because its under pressure because the exit is feeding the compressor tank at full pressure, not venting to outside air, air may enter at 140 psi and exit at slightly less as the tank fills but generally you cant run many air tools at less than 90psi-100psi so you generally want the holding tank pressure above 110psi

Image
Image
Image
personally Id move the compressor input to a good deal closer to the drain location in this diagram, like on the lower drain tube common between the first and second vertical,(move from red dot to blue dot) to avoid allowing a direct air route to the out to the tank port

I sure hope your water separator design works because it seems to be one of the least expensive options
have you made any progress? reading several places I see that adding a fan to the application tends to increase efficiency as it tends to reduce heat retention once the separator starts working and getting the compressor heat building up,

look at the lower picture, I was thinking that ( 4) 8'-10' sections of 3/4" copper pipe separated about 2" apart,and using copper sweat fitting tees and 90s sure seem to me to be a potential working design with a 1" lower tube and 3/4" upper tube?
wjhats your ideas here?
how does it work?
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby grumpyvette » February 3rd, 2012, 10:59 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAOuuaNu ... e=youtu.be

this video seems to be rather interesting
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby Indycars » February 3rd, 2012, 12:51 pm

grumpyvette wrote:
COMPDRYa.jpg

personally Id move the compressor input to a good deal closer to the drain location in this diagram, like on the lower drain tube common between the first and second vertical,(move from red dot to blue dot) to avoid allowing a direct air route to the out to the tank port

look at the lower picture, I was thinking that ( 4) 8'-10' sections of 3/4" copper pipe separated about 2" apart,and using copper sweat fitting tees and 90s sure seem to me to be a potential working design with a 1" lower tube and 3/4" upper tube?
wjhats your ideas here?
how does it work?


Sorry I didn't see all the message, you must of posted after I read it the first time.

Instead of making the vertical tubes in parallel and moving the input from RED to BLUE, why not make them in series. Like the drawing below. You want the air to take the longest path possible to provide the most cooling before the air reaches the tank.

FYI.......I just purchased a 10' section of 1/2 copper Type L for $17. If you needed 4 of them the cost would be $68. The bigger 3/4 and 1" would be even more.

CopperCoolingFixture.jpg


I've made some progress, I should have more to post this weekend.

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