Franzinator Air Dryer



Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby Indycars » February 23rd, 2012, 10:21 am


At this point I think I going to wait and see if I still have a problem this spring. If I do then I will start with that short copper line of about 2 feet between the pump and air dryer that you mentioned. Probably make it longer, add some fins and maybe a fan.

This does not concern drying the air, but I would suggest moving the unloader valve to the input of the air dryer. There is a lot more volume of compressed air now that is trapped between the pump to receiving tank section. This is being dumped and is a waste of energy. It use to take a few seconds to work, but now the process is about 30-40 seconds long.

Rick
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby grumpyvette » March 6th, 2012, 4:27 pm

I spend most of the day duplicating a rather similar FRANZINATOR config to what INDYCARS built
its a slightly longer version, at about 5.5 feet in length , because I have twin compressors , and felt that was the minimum change required to get it to function at least marginally well, and ILL post pictures once I get it fully installed and tested, I don,t see any reason it won't work at least reasonably well, I ran copper 1/2" INSIDE DIAM. tubing to connect the compressors to the FRANZINATOR / WATER SEPARATOR and while its not what I originally envisioned , but its what was financially expedient and fit in the available space without taking up any floor space and it was not that difficult to fabricate, time will tell it the cost and effort was worth it.
If it requires further modification Im sure that can be added later
adding two of the oil coolers on the feed lines, one on each line feeding the FRANZINATOR from each compressor to significantly reduce the air temp before each line reached the in put point on the water separator/FRANZINATOR seems like a possibility
Image
Image

yes I know 3/4" sweated copper pipe is ideal, for air distribution piping, if its correctly laid out with drain points
and 3/4" black iron pipe is a good substitute, but 3/4" schedule 80 PVC IS easier to work with and a whole lot cheaper and lighter weight,and I know plenty of guys who have had it in use for over 10 years in their shops with out problems, I think the main concern is to keep it out of direct sun-light, away from any heat sources like lights or electrical, and to use SCHEDULE 80 no larger than 3/4", not schedule 40 which is more common and much weaker.
if you look at this OLD PICTURE,taken before I installed the small air conditioner condenser radiators,and franzinator condenser moisture collector pipe,that I later installed above the compressors you'll see I ran a 3/4" schedule 80 PVC up into the rafters (white vertical pipe)and over to several places where I have quick connect points for air hose connections
and yes the dual compressors put out a max of about 140psi and as its rated at easily 4 times that and its only under pressure when in use I can,t see it as being an issue.
I also built a heat exchanger with an aux fan that works to dissipate compressor heat and condense moisture before it gets to the holding tanks or enters the distribution piping.
understand 3/4" COPPER PIPE is the IDEAL PIPE, 3/4" black iron is great, and I don,t advise anyone use PVC .but yeah Ive been using it for about 8 years without any issues,
and yeah if I had access to 150-200 ft of 3/4" copper pipe, to re-due my shop, Id swap it out but I have yet to find any in a salvage yard at a decent price for obvious reasons
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby Indycars » March 6th, 2012, 4:57 pm

Now is that 1/2" ID or OD copper tubing??? :D

I've been thinking about what you have been up to on this project a couple of times lately. To complete my project and bought new 3/8" ID Goodyear hose ($24.91) and disposable inline filter that I attached to the spray gun. The picture doesn't show it very well but you can see the color of the desiccant thru the sides of the filter, so when it changes color you just throw it away.

http://www.tooltopia.com/arrow-pneumatic-pma-10.aspx

DisposableInlineFilter_ARRPMA10.JPG


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Rick
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby grumpyvette » March 7th, 2012, 12:04 am

its 1/2 ID copper tubing

I got it all connected and started running several test procedures ,
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby grumpyvette » March 10th, 2012, 2:44 pm

I got it all connected and started running several test procedures , at first I had a few minor leaks in the soldered 1/2 inside diam. copper tubing connections where I failed to get perfect solder coverage and a few more minor leaks in the threaded pipe sections of the franzinator that I tracked down quickly with a spray bottle of water mixed with DAWN dish wash detergent ,
(leaks result in bubbles in the soap mist solution sprayed on suspected leaks)
once those were resealed and corrected it became obvious that the hot air from the compressors entering the franzinator rapidly heated the franzinator to the point that very little moisture was collecting and being separated in the franzinator , just like you found with your IR heat gun, testing, so the franzinator was effectively mostly useless at this point, and under these current conditions, a rather disappointing failure in my opinion, as it doesn,t truly eliminate the moisture although it does seem to work marginally , but the concept is valid so I need to install two heat exchangers or fan equipped condensers on the compressor feed lines before the air reaches the franzinator moisture collector to dissipate the heat in the compressed air and let the franzinator work as a moisture collection and separation point, one thing that had me rather confused for a few minutes was the feed lines from both compressors enter the franzinator at about 1/3rd of the height and the two compressor tanks are fed from the upper franzinator connection, I had the tank gauges reading 120 psi on both tanks and opened the lower ball valve on the franzinator, naturally I got a rush of high pressure air exit the lower fanzinator but the pressure drained off in seconds yet the pressure gauges on the tank failed to drop even when there was no pressure left in the franzinator ????? then I figured out that theres a one way check valve in the top of each 60 gallon air storage tanks input line, so it will allow high pressure air flow into the storage tanks from the franzinator but it won,t allow back flow out too the franzinator back thru the input lines to the storage tanks if the pressure drops in the franzinator.

Image

the solution seems simple enough but I need to find the correct components at a decent price to make the concept work and still remain cost effective
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby Indycars » March 10th, 2012, 4:23 pm

grumpyvette wrote:I got it all connected and started running several test procedures , at first I had a few minor leaks in the soldered 1/2 inside diam. copper tubing connections where I failed to get perfect solder coverage and a few more minor leaks in the threaded pipe sections of the franzinator that I tracked down quickly with a spray bottle of water mixed with DAWN dish wash detergent ,
(leaks result in bubbles in the soap mist solution sprayed on suspected leaks)
once those were resealed and corrected it became obvious that the hot air from the compressors entering the franzinator rapidly heated the franzinator to the point that very little moisture was collecting and being separated in the franzinator , just like you found with your IR heat gun, testing, so the franzinator was effectively mostly useless at this point,

Did you mean effective or ineffective ???

and under these current conditions, a rather disappointing failure in my opinion, as it doesn,t truly eliminate the moisture although it does seem to work marginally [/color], but the concept is valid so I need to install two heat exchangers or fan equipped condensers on the compressor feed lines before the air reaches the franzinator moisture collector

I'm getting mostly muck or emulsified oil out of the Franz. Probably because my compressor is 30 years old and a lot of oil is getting past the rings.


to dissipate the heat in the compressed air and let the franzinator work as a moisture collection and separation point, one thing that had me rather confused for a few minutes was the feed lines from both compressors enter the franzinator at about 1/3rd of the height and the two compressor tanks are fed from the upper franzinator connection, I had the tank gauges reading 120 psi on both tanks and opened the lower ball valve on the franzinator, naturally I got a rush of high pressure air exit the lower fanzinator but the pressure drained off in seconds yet the pressure gauges on the tank failed to drop even when there was no pressure left in the franzinator ????? then I figured out that theres a one way check valve in the top of each 60 gallon air storage tanks input line, so it will allow high pressure air flow into the storage tanks from the franzinator but it won,t allow back flow out too the franzinator back thru the input lines to the storage tanks if the pressure drops in the franzinator.
You must be talking about the Unloader valve that bleeds the pressure of the compressor pump so it's NOT starting against 120 psi. Once the compressor stops and the pressure is bleed off, the Franz is NOT holding any pressure any more.

ON FEBRUARY 23 I POSTED : You might want to try this mod. I've yet to try it thou.
Indycars wrote:
This does not concern drying the air, but I would suggest moving the unloader valve to the input of the air dryer. There is a lot more volume of compressed air now that is trapped between the pump to receiving tank section. This is being dumped and is a waste of energy. It use to take a few seconds to work, but now the process is about 30-40 seconds long.



the solution seems simple enough but I need to find the correct components at a decent price to make the concept work and still remain cost effective
Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby grumpyvette » March 10th, 2012, 4:31 pm

SORRY FOR THE TYPO< I MEANT "effectively mostly useless"
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby grumpyvette » May 19th, 2012, 5:37 pm

well I spend most of the day soldering in three used 22"x 32" air conditioning condensers , my B.I.L. located dirt cheap, so that both compressors feed into a common distribution manifold, that feed 1/3 if the flow from the compressors to each of the three condensers then out to a similar manifold that feeds out to the one common franzinator, so it acts as a common moisture collection and drain point , then back out to the twin compressor hold tanks, the result is that the systems compressor heat in the air is reduced to room temp in the franzinator and about 99% of the moisture now drains there, never reaching the compressor holding tanks.
resulting in REASONABLY DRY AIR, I got ZERO air with moisture at the spray gun, and the addition of the three condensers vastly improved efficiency, I still need to make a few changes and the pipe routing needs further work and IM sure adding a fan will further improve the heat transfer resulting in even better efficiency, but the end result is that the three condensers did the trick, Ill post pictures as soon as I can, its certainly not a thing of beauty but it does work as its designed too!
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby Indycars » May 20th, 2012, 12:42 pm

I just drained my system and measured the amount of water from the compressor tank and the Franzinator. I got about 3 times the amount from the Franzinator this time. It seem to vary quite a bit. The longer the compressor run the more it heats the Franzinator up and the less effective it is. So it just depends on how the compressor is used, shorts runs are better for removing water.

Do you get much oil from your system similar to what you see in my pics?

DrainTest_2313.jpg
DrainTest_2314.jpg


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Rick
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- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby grumpyvette » May 20th, 2012, 1:15 pm

Im getting very little oil,showing in the trapped water drained,out of the franzinator moisture trap, just a tiny bit in fact, IM really happy with the addition of the 3 condensers, as they dissipate 99% of the heat in the compressed air before that air reaches the franzinator making it a simple moisture trap/separator and drain.
the addition of an electric fan did increase efficiency, in fact you have to drain the water out of the franzinator moisture collection pipe about every 30 minutes as it starts to fill remarkably fast with the fan on, showing its helped reduce and trap more moistureits rather (RUBE GOLDBERG) at this point, as I made brackets to hold the fan about 6" above the condensers surface out of (8) 90 degree sections of 3/4" PVC electrical conduit and a 10 ft section of cut up 3/4" plastic pipe. but its working very well, I no longer get any moisture at the last drain thats mounted just past where the dual compressors feed the pipe supplying the shops air tap quick connects for the air hoses

Image
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Franzinator Air Dryer

Postby Indycars » December 29th, 2013, 7:27 pm


Since I've added a new 60 gal Quincy compressor AND the Franzinator has had
chance to work with higher water content of the summer air temps..... I've
drained alot of water from the Franzinator.

Compressor and Piping Installation
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8986

I get 1/2 cup from it and the compressor tank usually has nothing. I've only
gotten water from the compressor a couple of times out of the many times
I've drained the Franz.

The water from the Frans no longer has any oil, it actually looks pretty clear,
although I think I will skip drinking any !!! :)

Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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