Setting pinion depth



Setting pinion depth

Postby Old Ken » December 12th, 2009, 8:59 am

Here a good way to set pinion depth I found on line. Hope this helps someone out.
Ken

http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/ ... Page_2.php
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Re: Setting pinion depth

Postby grumpyvette » December 12th, 2009, 9:13 am

thanks for posting that link, Im sure it will be helpful,
heres more, related info
keep in mind that your rear gear ratio, converter stall speed and transmission gearing have a huge effect on where your engine spends the majority of its time in the engines rpm/power band, building an engine that puts out killer horsepower in the 5000rpm-7500rpm band looks great in magazine articles, but match that engine to a 2000rpm stall converter and a 2.87:1 rear gear with a transmission that shifts at 5500rpm like many stock drive trains have and youve built a total dog, that runs like crap in your street car


http://www.ringpinion.com/HowTo.aspx

http://richmondgear.com/ringandpinion.pdf

http://www.differentials.com/install.html

http://richmondgear.com/ringandpinion.pdf

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=10690&p=46305#p46305

http://www.richmondgear.com/01instructions.html

http://www.jegs.com/i/Richmond-Gear/836 ... tId=750830

http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog ... tions.html

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=3157&p=8449&hilit=indicator#p8449

http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog ... tions.html

http://www.differentials.com/install.html

http://www.off-road.com/trucks4x4/artic ... ?id=186120

http://www.ringpinion.com/FAQ.aspx

http://www.differentials.com/products.html

http://www.motivegear.com/videos.html

http://www.richmondgear.com/ringandpinion.pdf

http://www.markwilliams.com/ringpin.aspx

http://www.fourwheeler.com/howto/29778/index.html

http://www.ehow.com/how_2159877_set-up- ... ntial.html

http://www.corvette-restoration.com/res ... ctions.pdf

http://www.et4wd.org/tech/ringandpinion/default.htm

http://www.ehow.com/how_5149943_change- ... gears.html

http://www.corral.net/tech/drivetrain/gears.html

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1274&p=2730&hilit=tools+pinion#p2730

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=555

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=945&p=2690&hilit=tools+pinion#p2690

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=257&p=308&hilit=+tools+pinion#p308

BREAK IN

A new ring and pinion installation, especially a high numeric ratio with new bearings, can cause an excessive heat buildup in the rear end and cause softening of the gear teeth and bearings if a break in is not performed.

Street vehicles should be driven at normal street driving speed for approximately 10 miles, then stop and let cool for 30 minutes. Do this 2 to 3 times. Towing vehicles need approximately 200-300 miles of normal street driving before being used for towing.

On circle track race cars make approximately 6 to 8 laps at slow speed, then let cool for 30 minutes. Make 6 to 8 more laps at slow speed, then 2 to 3 laps at full speed, the let cool again for 30 minutes.

Drag cars need only an initial run-in since they are driven short distances and heat is not normally a problem with proper lube and backlash allowance.

NOTE: If after the above break in is performed, overheating of the rear end is suspected, repeat the final portion of the break in procedures.



HELPFUL HINTS & ADDITIONS TO RICHMOND GEAR INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS

After completely reading instructions, go back to Step #4. The following group of shim thickness are only if you do not have access to a pinion depth gauge or the old shim from the old pinion to start with. GM - .035", Ford 8"-9" - .020", Ford 8.8"-7.5" - .030", All Dana's - .035", 8 3/4" x 1 3/4" pin, - .090", 8 3/4" x 1 7/8" pin, - .020", Mopar - 9 1/4" - .020"

Pinion depth shims are located underneath the rear pinion bearing cone that is pressed on pinion with exception of the Dana Models. Dana pinion depth shims are underneath the rear pinion bearing cup in the housing. Dana carrier bearing pre-load shims are between carrier and bearing cone. All others are on the outside of bearing cup unless spanners are used as in the Ford 8 and 9 inch, both 8 3/4 and Mopar 9 1/4. Ford 8 and 9 inch pinion depth is regulated by shims between pinion support and chuck or center section.

Step #5 - If crush collar is used to set bearing pre-load, do not use until you have established pinion depth and backlash and you are satisfied with the pattern you get. You can simulate pinion bearing pre-load by tightening pinion nut until the right pre-load is achieved with only motor oil on the pinion bearings. The crush collar and pinion seal should be last to install.



Step #7 - GM rear cover style housings use shims on the outside, between bearing cup and housing, adjusting backlash and carrier bearing pre-load If starting with a bare housing, or you are installing a spool or different carrier, before you mount the ring gear, establish equal shim pack on each side of carrier and enough to create a drag when you slide it in and out of the housing by hand. Keep in mind you should keep the thickest shim next to the bearing cup. With a little loctite on the threads of the rings gear bolt, mount gear to carrier or spool. After adjusting shim pack to get proper backlash and once you have established your pattern, remove carrier and pinion. Now is the time to install crush collar and pinion seal. NOTE" Always use loctite on the pinion nut. If you do not have a rear end housing spreader, you will have to work at installing the carrier once you add more shim to pre-load the carrier bearings. As a rule of thumb all carrier bearings will require .010 pre-load After adding .005 to each side of the shim pack, coat surfaces of the shims with axle bearing grease to hold them in the housing, make sure the cups stay straight. Using a plastic or brass hammer, gently pound on bearing cups side to side until carrier has seated in housing. Again, it is important that you keep the cups straight during this operation. A spreader is almost necessary for all Dana Model rear ends. Torque caps to proper torque value.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Setting pinion depth

Postby 2Loose » April 24th, 2013, 1:37 pm

While trying to find some definitive information on Ford 9" side adjuster pre-load, at Randy's Ring and Pinion I found a comment that said:
" Most people are reluctant to really crank down on the side adjusters in their differential. Attaining a good preload through the side adjusters can be critical in protecting your differential from the high torque loads that cause ring gear deflection. It is not uncommon to torque side adjusters to 150-200 ft/lbs when setting up a differential. "

This is about the only comment I've been able to find that gave a number on what the side pre-load should be. That's a pretty significant side load!!!

http://www.ringpinion.com/TechnicalHelp/FAQ.aspx

Aloha,
Willy
Slow Old Man = Fast Old Cars
My Do It Yourself Web Page...
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Re: Setting pinion depth

Postby 87vette81big » April 24th, 2013, 6:26 pm

2Loose wrote:While trying to find some definitive information on Ford 9" side adjuster pre-load, at Randy's Ring and Pinion I found a comment that said:
" Most people are reluctant to really crank down on the side adjusters in their differential. Attaining a good preload through the side adjusters can be critical in protecting your differential from the high torque loads that cause ring gear deflection. It is not uncommon to torque side adjusters to 150-200 ft/lbs when setting up a differential. "

This is about the only comment I've been able to find that gave a number on what the side pre-load should be. That's a pretty significant side load!!!

http://www.ringpinion.com/TechnicalHelp/FAQ.aspx

Aloha,
Willy


The best way to set carrier bearing preload is by measuring differential carrier case spread with a very good dial indicator. Prefer to have it measure in .0001 or 1/10,000 ths of an inch.
How I like to do it.
Double check with an inch pound torque wrench to measure assemble gear carrier drag -load, no axle shafts installed.
I have my own specs I use.
Sometimes it seems your cranking down on those adjuster nuts to 200 + ft./lbs.

Brian
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Re: Setting pinion depth

Postby 2Loose » April 24th, 2013, 7:43 pm

Brian,
I once saw numbers on spreading those bearing supports but don't remember what they were. I do remember that they were in 10,000th's measurements. Do you have some numbers that you like to look for when setting them up? I have two to set up, a Strange aluminum case, and a Currey 9+. Seems like the aluminum's spread reading would be different then the nodular Iron, to get the same preload.
Willy
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Re: Setting pinion depth

Postby 87vette81big » April 24th, 2013, 9:58 pm

2Loose wrote:Brian,
I once saw numbers on spreading those bearing supports but don't remember what they were. I do remember that they were in 10,000th's measurements. Do you have some numbers that you like to look for when setting them up? I have two to set up, a Strange aluminum case, and a Currey 9+. Seems like the aluminum's spread reading would be different then the nodular Iron, to get the same preload.
Willy


Willy,

Every Rear End or Differential type has its own Torsional stiffness level,
Material used. Many different types of iron, wrought iron, pig iron, cast pertaltic iron, nodular iron, High nickle content iron( 30% & above).
Much I do or determine how to set up a particular rear is by experience, what I feel with my hands while making adjustments- corrections, and I am able to read- see the pattern changes as I work.

The Curry 9+ inch I do believe your working with is nodular iron.
Shoot for .006" to .007 " case spread, bearing preload.

The Strange aluminum case, shoot for .007 to .009" inch case spread.

All parts must be well lubricated with 75-90w gear oil. Never make carrier adjustments with threaded adjusters dry. You can actually strip out the threads in the iron or aluminum carrier & steel adjuster rings.
Turn adjuster nuts slowly with strong arm force. No jerking or shaking. Takes real strong fore arm power to do, makes for accurate setup work and bearing preload, backlash setting.
Line up up holes in side of adjuster close to locks. Dont worry if they dont line up exact. Bend lock tabs as required. Big Tapered punch makes the job easier to move lock tabs where you need them.

In a crap shoot, set ring gear against pinion gear. Turn left hand adjuster to seat ring gear against pinion gear gently. STOP.
Take right hand adjuster, turn clockwise 2 notches or holes, feels OK, go another 1 or 2 notches. Stop. Check backlash.
Make corrections as necessary.

Take your time, work slow.
I sometimes take 8 to 12 hours adjusting a New gearset to exact specs I want & full pattern on drive & coast side.
I work for perfection.
Not always necessary. Like light street driven.
But I assume people will abuse rearends I build for them like none other before.
And push them well past design limits that they often do.


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Re: Setting pinion depth

Postby 2Loose » April 24th, 2013, 10:42 pm

Thanks Brian,
I understand how the differences in structures like these can effect differences in measurements when trying to get good setups.

I worked on the Strange aluminum unit today, for street use in my blown pump gas 425 Olds powered 55 Chevy. Last month at the track I ran a 12.2 quarter at 118 mph, lots of tire smoke, on 28" BFG street tires with 3.00 gears and a Detroit locker, behind a Doug Nash 4+1 with a 3.28 low gear. My 60' time was 2.5 seconds, with lots of smoke. So I know there's a lot more in there.

Have some new 31" tall 12" wide Hoosiers I just put on for the street, and had this Strange Al. carrier available, so put the Detroit Locker with 3.50 gears in it and had to trim the pinion nose bearing boss as it was hitting the Detroit Locker in the middle of the shell, but got that done so there is clearance now with good pinion insertion, good wipe pattern, and backlash running 0.006" to 0.007" around the ring gear. It's a used ring and pinion with low hours. Cinched up the side loads a bit on the big bearings, first cleaned the grooves, threads, etc thoroughly and oiled with 30 wgt, next time I'll use 90 wgt, but the 30 wgt seemed just fine. Waiting for some new pinion bearing spacers and shims to arrive, just set the pinion bearing preload such that I got some resistance so I could check the insertion, a 0.020" shim on the Daytona housing worked perfectly to give a very nice pattern both on the drive and coast sides all around the ring gear.

When I get the new pinion bearing spacers installed, I'll back it all off on the big bearings and work as you suggested. I usually can get the adjuster holes in good proximity to the tabs and a slight tap on the retainer tabs to set them nicely down in the hole after torquing the screws, always seems to do a nice job of holding them in. In the past have always used crush sleeves, going to try the new (to me anyway) Strange two piece pinion bearing spacers with shims this time, they should arrive tomorrow.

When I do the nodular iron Currie 9+ it will get setup for some more serious drag racing. Going to run 4.11 gears on a spool at the track with MT slicks. Running 35 spline axles, so that is not a problem. For T&T I'm thinking it should put me in the lights at 6k in fifth gear in the tens at about 130 mph, if I can make the hp, nail my shifts, and not smoke the tires. I ran that setup briefly on the street last week, but with the 31" street Hoosiers, 50 mph in 5th at 2500. The slicks are 33" tall. The rear end sounded and ran great on acceleration, except the Hoosiers kept breaking loose, but had more noise (a whine) on the coast side, back in the pinion bearings I suspect, don't think I got them set right, so it gets pulled and redone and I'll run the 3.50 Strange setup on the street, should give me better mph/rpm for cruising the street.

Thanks for your comments, much appreciated.
Aloha from Maui,
Willy
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Re: Setting pinion depth

Postby 87vette81big » April 24th, 2013, 10:56 pm

2Loose wrote:Thanks Brian,
I understand how the differences in structures like these can effect differences in measurements when trying to get good setups.

I worked on the Strange aluminum unit today, for street use in my blown pump gas 425 Olds powered 55 Chevy. Last month at the track I ran a 12.2 quarter at 118 mph, lots of tire smoke, on 28" BFG street tires with 3.00 gears and a Detroit locker, behind a Doug Nash 4+1 with a 3.28 low gear. My 60' time was 2.5 seconds, with lots of smoke. So I know there's a lot more in there.

Have some new 31" tall 12" wide Hoosiers I just put on for the street, and had this Strange Al. carrier available, so put the Detroit Locker with 3.50 gears in it and had to trim the pinion nose bearing boss as it was hitting the Detroit Locker in the middle of the shell, but got that done so there is clearance now with good pinion insertion, good wipe pattern, and backlash running 0.006" to 0.007" around the ring gear. It's a used ring and pinion with low hours. Cinched up the side loads a bit on the big bearings, first cleaned the grooves, threads, etc thoroughly and oiled with 30 wgt, next time I'll use 90 wgt, but the 30 wgt seemed just fine. Waiting for some new pinion bearing spacers and shims to arrive, just set the pinion bearing preload such that I got some resistance so I could check the insertion, a 0.020" shim on the Daytona housing worked perfectly to give a very nice pattern both on the drive and coast sides all around the ring gear.

When I get the new pinion bearing spacers installed, I'll back it all off on the big bearings and work as you suggested. I usually can get the adjuster holes in good proximity to the tabs and a slight tap on the retainer tabs to set them nicely down in the hole after torquing the screws, always seems to do a nice job of holding them in. In the past have always used crush sleeves, going to try the new (to me anyway) Strange two piece pinion bearing spacers with shims this time, they should arrive tomorrow.

When I do the nodular iron Currie 9+ it will get setup for some more serious drag racing. Going to run 4.11 gears on a spool at the track with MT slicks. Running 35 spline axles, so that is not a problem. For T&T I'm thinking it should put me in the lights at 6k in fifth gear in the tens at about 130 mph, if I can make the hp, nail my shifts, and not smoke the tires. I ran that setup briefly on the street last week, but with the 31" street Hoosiers, 50 mph in 5th at 2500. The slicks are 33" tall. The rear end sounded and ran great on acceleration, except the Hoosiers kept breaking loose, but had more noise (a whine) on the coast side, back in the pinion bearings I suspect, don't think I got them set right, so it gets pulled and redone and I'll run the 3.50 Strange setup on the street, should give me better mph/rpm for cruising the street.

Thanks for your comments, much appreciated.
Aloha from Maui,
Willy


Its fun setting up Ford 9 inch rears. Pretty forgiving design.
Dana 1 piece housings like the Dana 44 or Dana 60 tests your skills, patience, & wits setting up.

Only time I ever had issues with using a pinion crush sleeve with a Ford 9 inch, was for circle dirt track racing. By the last hour, my local dirt track gets so rutted up, cars are going around in 1 foot craters at 60- 90 mph.
Crush sleeve will fail from driveshaft pounding hard against pinion, solid crush sleeve are a must.
They are a pain in the Azzzz to setup for correct pinion bearing pleload. Juggling shims, measuring with dial calipers or veneer micrometer. Just never seem to to hit exact pinion preload I want using supplied shims. I wet sand shims on a sheet of glass, 600 grit sandpaper, sprinkle water down, have an old speaker magnet that fits all rear end shims just nice. Use magnet to gently wet sand shims to size or thickness I want. It takes patience & time too.
Lunicay to most, But I am real picky..... ;)

Not sure if your going to have enough gear for your ET goals.
4.56 or 4.88. Know you have the Doug Nash 5 speed. I Forget second gear ratio in your gearbox, if around 2.20 or 2.52 to 1, I would launch in 2 - second gear off the line with deep - low rear gears.
1 less shift to make too.
Old Super Stocker Trick I recall a few used in past to set records.

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Re: Setting pinion depth

Postby 2Loose » April 25th, 2013, 2:26 am

Not sure I could get the rpm to run a 4.56 rear. I have a set on the shelf, also a 4.33, but the calcs I've run for the 33" tires (actually I'm sure something less then 33" when loaded, don't have the actual real number yet) looks like my 6,000 rpm rev limit (big old motor, valve train, cam, hyd roller lifters, valve springs), I'm keeping it limited to 6,000. A 33" tire with 4.56 calcs out at 129 mph at 6k, but doubt that those tires will run a real rolling diameter of 33", if the real number is 31", with a 4.56 I only get 121 mph at 6k. Yeah, they do grow with speed, but how much on a 4,000 lb car? (yeah, rotund lil' 55 isn't it....)? So I'm looking at the 4.11's with an actual rolling diameter on those soft tires of 31", which calcs out as 123 mph at 5500, and 135 at 6k. Shifting at 41, 63, 86 and 109. The motor wants to pull hard, it's 8:1 pistons, running a Don Hampton 6/71 at 7 lbs on 92 octane, no indication at all of preignition running 36 deg full advance above 3k, with full boost! Ported aluminum heads that flow well and an excellent cooling system, running a nice steady 180 deg. Oil temp about the same. I've got the Holly HP600's tuned to run at A/F of around 15 when pulling 15 to 20 inches of vacuum, gives me about 20 mpg on the street, but drops to 13 A/F as I start boost. Big fuel system, never runs out of fuel. When on boost you can see the fuel gage move!!! :lol:
Been a farm machinery mechanic/engineer all my life, this stuff is new to me, and a whole bunch of fun....
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Re: Setting pinion depth

Postby 87vette81big » April 25th, 2013, 7:31 am

2Loose wrote:Not sure I could get the rpm to run a 4.56 rear. I have a set on the shelf, also a 4.33, but the calcs I've run for the 33" tires (actually I'm sure something less then 33" when loaded, don't have the actual real number yet) looks like my 6,000 rpm rev limit (big old motor, valve train, cam, hyd roller lifters, valve springs), I'm keeping it limited to 6,000. A 33" tire with 4.56 calcs out at 129 mph at 6k, but doubt that those tires will run a real rolling diameter of 33", if the real number is 31", with a 4.56 I only get 121 mph at 6k. Yeah, they do grow with speed, but how much on a 4,000 lb car? (yeah, rotund lil' 55 isn't it....)? So I'm looking at the 4.11's with an actual rolling diameter on those soft tires of 31", which calcs out as 123 mph at 5500, and 135 at 6k. Shifting at 41, 63, 86 and 109. The motor wants to pull hard, it's 8:1 pistons, running a Don Hampton 6/71 at 7 lbs on 92 octane, no indication at all of preignition running 36 deg full advance above 3k, with full boost! Ported aluminum heads that flow well and an excellent cooling system, running a nice steady 180 deg. Oil temp about the same. I've got the Holly HP600's tuned to run at A/F of around 15 when pulling 15 to 20 inches of vacuum, gives me about 20 mpg on the street, but drops to 13 A/F as I start boost. Big fuel system, never runs out of fuel. When on boost you can see the fuel gage move!!! :lol:
Been a farm machinery mechanic/engineer all my life, this stuff is new to me, and a whole bunch of fun....


Best as you try, when drag racing, its very difficult to pick out exact gears for all conditions the 1st time.
Rear Slicks such as Goodyear 33s" will grow 1 to 2 inches taller at 100+ MPH. Done intentional in tire cord belt cross hatch design to gain MPH trap speed on the big end. Help the guy win the drag race.
Hoosiers tend to not grow so much, maybe 1 inches taller or so. Good for bracket racing for consistent ET's to take home the trophy & Pot of $$$ that day that can be $1K to 2K here on the tracks here in Illinois such as Byron, Cordova, Joliet.
I am a small town guy too. Joliet- Chicago guys have $$ and good stuff always. Credit card racing syndrome. I find that bad........
Save up $$$ as I do & get what you need & want.

425 olds is supposed to wind out, I know Grumpy does not recommend.
I think you could push the Olds 425 to 6,200 - 6,500 RPM safely.\
I did the same with my old Pontiac 455's.
4.21 crankshaft stroke.
Olds 425 3.975" inch if memory serves me correct.
When I had to win a street race in past against a real powerful Chevy, Buddie chip rev limiter went out of 6AL box, foot to the floor 7K RPM shifts. Stayed together & engine exhaust noise wonderful, kept pulling, won most of the time. Sure main bearing life shortened. No one said drag racing was cheep to do. ;)
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Re: Setting pinion depth

Postby 2Loose » April 25th, 2013, 12:34 pm

My Dad was an Olds mechanic, so I grew up around 50's and 60's era Olds motors, but not in any racing efforts. Like the '49 GMC farm truck with a 330 ci Olds in it, it really earned it's keep hauling lug boxes full of fresh picked fruit off of the farm to the market in Sacramento 40 miles away for many years....
The 425 came out of a family '67 Delta 88 4 dr that we had for many years, and I liked the forged crank, and the 3.975" stroke w/ 4.155" bore (after 30 over bore job). Dad always thought a properly tuned Olds 425 was good to 6,500 where the 455 should be kept to 5,500 max. I'm running a pretty mild cam, and valve springs, w/ fairly heavy roller hyd lifters, it's a nice streetable setup, with a slight "rump-rump" at the stoplights....
My thoughts were to make a fun street 55 that would make it's power at the track with boost and the ported heads breathing well....
When I get this 3.50 Strange street rear setup done and back in the car, will put on those 33" slicks and find a piece of road where I can set the gps up and see just how much rpm it takes to do 100 mph, then I can back calc the effective running tire diameter for that speed and recheck what gears I want to setup for the track: 4.11, 4.33 or 4.56, have 'em all sitting on the shelf. And I think I am slowly getting better at setting up those third members, everytime I do one I learn a little more. This pinion preload and the side settings on the ring carrier were always a bit of a mystery to me. The wipe pattern I got yesterday on the ring gear teeth was the best one yet! And the backlash readings of .006 to.007 all around the ring gear put a smile on my face....
Aloha,
Willy
Slow Old Man = Fast Old Cars
My Do It Yourself Web Page...
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Re: Setting pinion depth

Postby 87vette81big » April 25th, 2013, 6:48 pm

Good Luck at the Track Willy.
Know more from your latest time slips.
Post copies. Scan them if you can.
Grumpy, Rick love to run simulation programs.
See if everything coincides in theory.
I love to look and think out in my head.
130-135 trap speed means 10s on a good run.
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Re: Setting pinion depth

Postby 2Loose » April 25th, 2013, 11:58 pm

Had fun today setting up the pinion, swapping shims until I got the proper preload, a nice even 24 in-lbs on the pinion, stuffed it back in and got the same .007 +/- .001 all around the ring gear, so buttoned it up and brought it home to stuff in the gasser tomorrow. Then I hafta rebuild the spool in the 9+, still up in the air on that, 4.11?, 4.33? or 4.56?.....
Need to know how much those MT 33" tires might grow, or decrease in size, before I can do anything. Am loving this exercise....
Aloha,
Willy
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Re: Setting pinion depth

Postby grumpyvette » April 26th, 2013, 6:19 am

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=741

the sub linked info in this thread should be rather helpful and my calcs strongly suggest a 4.11 is best from the info you posted from the limited selection listed, limiting the engine to 6000rpm with 33" tires
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Setting pinion depth

Postby 2Loose » April 26th, 2013, 12:18 pm

OK......
4.11 's it is.... :D
With new bearings....
I discovered yesterday that our local bearing house carries the correct Timken bearings for my 3.250" carrier bearings and my Daytona pinion bearings.
Willy
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