anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual?



Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby grumpyvette » May 12th, 2014, 11:27 am

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby 87vette81big » May 12th, 2014, 11:49 am

I am trying daily too Grumpy.
I haven't had any decent sidejobs in months.
Few daily drivers here & there.
Steve has a spare protype C4 shifter 4L80E.
Told me so.
We chat here & there on the phone. Texting each other.
Racing Proves All.
Non believers are Now Sold.
Its up to Phil & Me.
He is Loyal to You & this Site as me.
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Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby 87vette81big » May 12th, 2014, 12:11 pm

Junkman is a Key Figure finding Younger up & coming Racers in the Corvette World.
Its his Personality.....he don't give up. Just as Us Grumpy.

5.0 Mustang guys around yet.
Need more Ford Power Tech.
They like old race legends too...
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Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby 87vette81big » May 12th, 2014, 6:35 pm

Those God Damn Luberals Fickered up nearly All Grumpy.
Its difficult to find guys local that have funds $ to build a Street performace-Race Engine, Automatic Trans, Rear Differential Right.
On the Internet too.
Best to take on Emergency Repairs. Your Very Good At that Too.
Not quitting my Day Job as a Mechanic. Can't.
Summer is almost here. Land some A/C Work. Simple grab the cash with Recharges.
Lead to other repair jobs perhaps.
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Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby grumpyvette » June 7th, 2014, 2:44 pm

DISASSEMBLE
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr1ItQKg0w8 PART 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YodqWI3EEdc PART 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9CU83qHxUs Part 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV5GJU0xpOo PART 4




REBUILD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7JB8Jqcif0 PART 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5x6VlBnT_8 PART 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYLMFs6SEIc PART 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnEYxJ0FHJ4 PART 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9wknedhRFQ PART 5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djQ0e2O54fg PART 6

RELATED INFO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXntVRW8o4I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7A0VN3Cyws

I watched several of these and it made me wonder if I ever want to disassemble a 4l80e transmission
I I had that same feeling of DREAD before I ever tried to rebuild my first engine, or first muncie transmission, and I became familiar with those, so I,m sure Ill eventually over come it but It not a great feeling
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby 87vette81big » June 7th, 2014, 6:24 pm

Tearing into an automatic transmission does not scare me Grumpy.
Need the right tools fpr the task.
If we lived closer I would drive over & do it for You.
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Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby grumpyvette » June 7th, 2014, 7:32 pm

87vette81big wrote:Tearing into an automatic transmission does not scare me Grumpy.
Need the right tools fpr the task.
If we lived closer I would drive over & do it for You.


If you lived next door I think we would both eventually benefit and learn a good deal.....now if I can just convince RICK and a few others to move around here also things might really look up
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby 87vette81big » June 8th, 2014, 6:02 am

From a Strategic Anti Bam Bam Muslum War viewpoint Grumpy,
Rick & Bob are in the Best States to be in.
Oklahoma & Texas.
I have some really nice Farmground on my property to grow Food.
SHTF.
I hate that Anti Christ Muslum Grumpy.
Wish he would drop dead.
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Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby grumpyvette » August 21st, 2014, 6:55 pm

4L80E Frequently Asked Questions

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=10588&p=45330#p45330

http://www.fuelairspark.com/fas/ez-tcut ... to-09html/

Why use a 4L80E and not a 4L60E?

The 4L80E is a descendent of the proven TH400 transmission design. It is very rugged, has much more potential for power capacity than any other overdrive transmission on the market. It has better power flow for big power applications, much more clutch capacity and apply area than the 4L60E. Simply put, from a design and engineering perspective, it’s a superior transmission in more powerful combinations. It’s not for everyone, but it is the unit of choice if you plan to make serious power.



What about HP loss or consumption?

The 4L80E will theoretically consume more HP than a 4L60E or other lighter duty transmission. It has a positive displacement pump as opposed to a variable displacement, it is heavier, has more rotating mass, more clutch drag, and on the surface would seem to “eat” HP. The biggest loss would seem to come from the heavier rotating mass. However what is widely misunderstood is that yes it’s heavier, but that alone doesn’t cause more power loss. Remember an object in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted upon by another force. So unless there is more friction involved, a heavier rotating mass doesn’t take any more HP to maintain the same speed as a much lighter mass. It DOES take more power to accelerate or decelerate the heavier mass. So what this means to the average enthusiast is the faster your car, the more power the transmission will consume. This applies to all transmissions. Power loss through the transmission will increase the faster you accelerate it. Our testing has shown that you will not see any significant power loss in a 11, 12 or 13 second combination. They simply aren’t accelerating fast enough that the rotating mass really comes into play. As you get into the low 10 second ¼ mile times, you may start to see some differences between a lightweight transmission and a heavier one. The thing to remember is, typically the lighter duty transmissions become a maintenance item at these power levels. More frequent rebuilds and failures. So for a small loss of power often equating to less than .05 second in Elapsed Time in the ¼ mile, you gain reliability. Unless you are racing for a record attempt where hundredths of a second are crucial, reliability is usually a more important factor.



What about size/weight of the 4L80E?

The 4L80E weighs 178 lbs in typical configuration. A 4L60E weighs approx. 135-140 lbs, a TH400 weighs 135 lbs, a TH350 weighs 125 lbs. All weights are without converter and dry with stock components. Converter weights will be similar for a given combination with the same size converter. i.e. 12”, 9.5”, 8”.

The 4L80E is very close to the same length as a 4L60E. Oftentimes we have swapped these units out without cutting the driveshaft, just a yoke change. It is more robust in the area behind the bellhousing than most other units. This is also the area where the cooler lines attach. The biggest fitment issue we see is in the cooler line area. Part of the issue is that the cooler lines on a 4L80E are not angled but come straight out of the case. In some cars the early cores (91-96) fit better than the 97-up cores due to the cooler line placement. We know from various installs that the 4L80E fits fairly easily in the 67-69 GM F-Body cars (Camaros Firebirds, and typically X-body Nova’s), 70-81 F-Body. 98-02 F-Body. 68-72 A-Body (Chevelles, Cutlass, GTO, etc), as well as the 78-87 G-Body cars (Malibu, Regal, Cutlass). We have customers who have installed them in 64-67 Chevelles with minor floorpan work.



What are the differences in the cores?

4L80E production started in 1991 and continues today. 1991-1996 cores are essentially the same and interchangeable with some minor updates and differences. The 1991-1993 cores had a poor electrical connector at the pass-through of the case. Many have been updated by now, and if not they would need a new harness anyway. The cores do not have provisions for bolting on a manual lever position switch (MLPS). 1994-1996 cores had an updated EPC (electronic pressure control) solenoid and some have the longer shifter shaft to allow use of the MLPS. All of the 1991-1996 cores have the “old” lubrication circuit design where both cooler lines attach to the case just behind the bellhousing. They also have the larger overdrive roller clutch, typically came with a 16 element instead of a 34 element intermediate sprag, and are of the traditional bellhousing bolt pattern used on SBC and BBC engines.


1997-1999 cores have the “new” lubrication circuit that has one cooler line attaching to the case
just behind the bellhousing, and the return line attaches several inches further to the rear. This was supposed to be an improvement to the lube circuit that “center lubed” the transmission, allowing better lubrication to the rear planetaries. These units still had the traditional bellhousing bolt pattern.

2000-2003 cores are similar to the 1997-1999 cores yet they added a bellhousing bolt position to the 12 o’clock position of the bell for the new LS series engines.

2004-up cores had some slight valve body changes and another EPC change.

We build all year model cores and feel they can all be built and work well. In bigger power applications, we prefer the early larger OD roller clutch setup. The type of lubrication circuit doesn’t seem to be an issue when properly built.



What about using an early model core on an LS engine with the missing bellhousing bolt?

We have many customers using the early cores behind LS engines. You will still have 5 bellhousing bolts instead of 6, and this is the same thing as installing a TH400, TH350, or Powerglide behind these engines. In a perfect world we would use a late model core behind the LS engines and be able to use all the bellhousing bolts. However the core costs are still much higher on the later model cores because GM is still buying these back for their rebuild program.



What about a converter cover?

Many of our performance customers are not using a cover. In a more drag racing oriented combo leaving it off allows better converter cooling. In a work truck, off-road, or mud racing combo we recommend installing a cover for protection. We do not provide these with our units as they typically don’t come in on the cores. They can be sourced through GM or a wrecking yard depending on the year of the core.



What type of fluid should be used?

In most applications, regular Dexron III type fluid is fine. Dexron VI or synthetic is also fine but not necessary. In some very harsh conditions, the use of tractor transmission/hydraulic fluid can help fluid and clutch life. This fluid is clear and harder to see on the dipstick. It is equivalent to Caterpillar TO-4 fluid and is available in different viscosities. We recommend using the low viscosity if you decide to use it unless you are trying to use it to tighten up the converter stall slightly. We do not feel Type F fluid is up to modern specs but it will not harm anything to use it.



How much power can the 4L80E handle?

A totally stock unit or rebuild will typically live well with up to 450 flywheel HP/TQ. Above this point the direct clutches will not live long without some hydraulic improvements.

Using our modifications or some valve body kits, the direct clutch issues are resolved and the 4L80E will generally be reliable up to the 750 HP/TQ range unless it’s a very heavy combination (over 4500 lbs) or using nitrous.

The weak point above this power level becomes the OEM input shaft. An upgraded input shaft becomes mandatory. We like to upgrade the forward hub at the same time.

The next real weakness is the stock 34 element sprag. This part is actually capable on a well built unit of living at over 1000 HP/TQ BUT it requires care and knowledge by the end-user. Knowledge of proper burnout procedures is critical. It will also be a maintenance item at the 1000 HP level. It will need to be inspected/replaced occasionally depending on how the unit is used.

We recommend upgrading to a “Super Drum” style sprag that requires a modified or custom made drum and race. It has 36 elements that are wider, a larger race, and uses more intermediate frictions. If you fits in your budget, this is always an excellent upgrade above the 750 HP/TQ range. Combined with the input shaft and forward hub upgrade, it makes the 4L80E almost bulletproof.



How does a Jake’s Performance 4L80E differ from a competitor’s?

Many of our parts are of our own design. We engineered the 4L80E transbrake that has become so popular and is used by other companies. We don’t just build the units but we constantly R&D new parts. Some of our own and some from competitor’s. We also select the parts we use. Many builders use upgraded, aftermarket parts such as the forward hubs, Super Drum, and aftermarket planetary gearsets. We don’t just use what’s cheapest or most commonly available like many builders. We select the parts based on what is better engineered, more reliable, or fits the application better. We may not be the lowest cost but we back up our product and take care of the customer. We don’t have to run an advertising blitz on the internet to get business, we rely on our reputation. Each unit is built using proven techniques and parts and then dyno tested before it ships. The unit is stamped with a number and the builder, dyno pressures, and other notes are recorded for warranty purposes. We have 4L80E’s living in extreme environments at over 1400 HP. The same care of assembly goes into our base build Stage II units as our more expensive builds.

http://www.jakesperformance.com/4L80E_FAQ.html
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby 87vette81big » August 21st, 2014, 7:13 pm

Nice Find Grumpy.
No one here has ever Rebuilt a 4L80E & Documented.
I may try & find a 4L80E core this winter.
At least we know the HP & Torque limits of 80 E stock now. 450 max.

Using My Pontiac TH400 yet for the 71GTO 455.
I know it will handle 500HP/ 500Ft/lbs as is.
Have my 1969 PR Code TH400 yet also to build & use.

Biggest draw back to the 4L80E is how expensive the aftermarket high stall lockup converters are for them.
Much less $$$ for a TH 400 High Stall .
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Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby 87vette81big » August 21st, 2014, 7:18 pm

Try as you might but behind real big HP & Sub 10-second cars, its not uncommon to have to buy 2-4 Custom high stalls till you find one that actually works for You.
Could mean $4-5k in High Stalls.
That's bad.
Seen others go through it. ET & MPH CHASING.
Fastest Street car shootout guys.

For us right now Low 10's.
Over 800HP at least.
Pass that Hellcat Animal.
Wont be easy.
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Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby Strictly Attitude » August 22nd, 2014, 4:36 pm

I have a bunch of info and a rebuild manual for the 4l80e I found when I did my 700r4. I always wanted to make one a 6 speed but from what I here they are not reliable allot of problems have come from it. But I haven't done any hard research recently on it.
"IF YOU CAN SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!"

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Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby grumpyvette » August 22nd, 2014, 6:57 pm

I know of two guys with turbo big blocks making 800hp plus, and one at nearly 1100hp, with rebuilt 4l80e transmissions and one guys had his for 5-6 years now with zero issues, so I have little doubt a properly assembled trans will hold up reasonably well.
its a fact that forged steel weights more than aluminum and a really strong transmission will have large FORGED STEEL GEARS AND SPLINED TRANSFER SHAFTS, the weights there for a reason,the heavier transmission parts are larger and stronger by design, and lack of weight may easily simply indicate significantly less robust parts strength, just as a 3/8" wrench weights a good deal less than a similar design in a 7/8" wrench, the reason, the size difference and expected torque loads that may be applied requires significantly more steel
most of the shops Ive talked to have suggested finding a 1999-2001 or newer transmission as a start point

The basic breakdown for the 4L80E goes like this from my books. 91-93 is the first style, 94 is a one off year and got the improved plug in it as well as the PWM solonoid for the TCC was changed to eliminate the cleaning cycle that earlier models had and the 4X4 models no longer had a tone wheel on the output shaft for the PCM as it used the VSS in the transfer case to do all of the work(some 94's still had a tone wheel in certain 4X4 applications). 95-96 is another style, same basic trans as the 94, but it got a boss on the case to mount the NSBU switch(neutral safety back-up switch). 97-early 99 got some improvements in them internally and had the trans cooler lines enlarged and they became known as a rear oiler as the return line was moved furthur back on the trans case. Mid year 99 the 4L80E received MANY improvements internally which included a new input shaft, wider band, and some oiling changes internally. The 4L80E was used on up into around 05 or so and was badged as the MT1 option whereas the 4L85E MN8 option was used primarily in motorhomes and the 3500HD chassis and other HD applications from about 99 or so. Some models were said to have straight cut planetary gears in some portions, solid input shafts, and the 5 pinion planetarys. I don't know all of this info to be 100%, but it is what I have found from alot of online researching and my ATSG manuals. You can take most any of the 4L80E's from a newer and swap into an older model as there are adapters for the cooler lines to facilitate this. And the PWM solonoid can be swapped from a 91-93 into a newer model and allow the use of most any of the 94+ 4L80E/4L85E into a 91-93 truck.

As for the torque converter, there are said to be 3 stock models. Low, Medium, and high stall models. The low stall converter was for the 6.5 and 454, medium stall models for the 305 and 350 in 2500's from 96+, and the high stall for the 4.3L that was offerred in some of the fleet 2500 trucks. The low stall model though is regarded as the best all around converter for most all of the V-8's except for the 305.


Here are bits from the manual .Some lube upgrades.
FORWARD CLUTCH HOUSING LUBE MODIFICATIONS.

Most performance 4L80E transmissions will be subjected to extreme loads and temperatures. This requires some modifications be made to the forward clutch housing (602) and related components to increase the volume of lube oil to the clutch packs and rotating components. Oil pump modifications performed for either fixed or increased variable line pressure will provide the increased volume and pressure. This is the first step. Now we need to improve its ability to flow into the clutch packs and rotating components. Before performing these modifications a parts change should be noted and made during assembly on all 1997 and up “late” or “center lube” type transmissions. Without this the lube circuit on all 1997 and up units will be severely compromised.
If you have a 97 and up transmission with a SOLID MAINSHAFT, it is mandatory that you replace it with the early 91-96 or TH400 HOLLOW MAINSHAFT. Do not skip over this important step. The hollow shaft will supply a huge increase in oil volume to the lube circuit of all center lube transmissions, regardless of intended usage. This update is covered in the appropriate unit.
A brief look at the lube circuit in regards to the forward clutch assembly will help you understand the modifications you will perform and how they will improve transmission function.
Pressurized lube oil exits from the hollow mainshaft inside diameter. See Figure 01. This lube oil is fed to an area, or “reservoir” located on the inside diameter of the forward clutch housing. The bottom of this area is sealed off by the rear of the turbine shaft. The top is sealed off by the rear thrust surface of the forward clutch hub (613). See Figure 02. Lube oil to the forward clutch pack must transfer between the reservoir and the inside diameter of the forward clutch hub. This is accomplished by the” rear” forward clutch hub thrust washer (612). Inspection of the thrust washer will reveal slots machined into both sides of the washer See Figure 03. These slots permit the transfer of lube oil between the “reservoir” and hub inside diameter. Slots in the washer have been highlighted to improve their visibility. See Figure 04. The volume of lube oil that can transfer thru the washer is compromised by the size of the slots and cannot handle the increased volume supplied to the lube circuit. The housing must be modified for increased transfer area. This is easily performed with a milling machine. See Figure 05. Using a .250” end mill, mill two .050” deep slots opposite each other in the “rear” thrust washer surface. The slots will now transfer an increased volume of lube oil between the two points. See Figure 06.





Locate the lube hole in the forward clutch housing (602). See Figure 07. To improve lubrication to the overdrive planetary assembly drill the hole out to.140”.



FORWARD AND DIRECT CLUTCH HUB UPGRADES AND MODIFICATIONS.

The production 4L80E forward clutch hub is suitable for most automatic shift applications up to 600 ft-lbs. torque. The production TH400 and 4L80E forward clutch hubs are dimensionally the same and are interchangeable in stock applications. However, the 4L80E hub is manufactured from better material so avoid interchanges in heavy duty applications whenever possible. Notice the identification groove in the face of the hub. See Figure 01. The TH400 hub will not have the identification groove. In any application over 600 ft-lb. torque the use of an aftermarket billet hub should be considered. See Figure 02.


Modifications performed to the forward clutch housing (602) have increased the volume of lube oil available at the hub inside diameter to lube the forward clutch pack. Lube oil must now pass from the hub inside diameter to the hub outside diameter and into the clutch pack. This oil passes thru 12 .187” diameter holes drilled in the slots between the hubs teeth. It is recommended to add 12 or more holes to the hub. There are 42 slots in the hub and 12 have been drilled. This leaves you a choice of 30 slots to add the extra holes to. Drill holes in a pattern similar to what is already present. Some lube oil will also enter the clutch pack thru the space between the bottom of the clutch hub and the forward clutch piston. A production 4L80E hub is shown in Figure 03. A modified production 4L80E hub is shown in Figure 04.



To dramatically improve lube oil to the direct clutch pack, drill 2 .140” holes opposite each other at 45 degree angles on the inside diameter of the forward clutch hub. The positioning of these holes has been carefully thought out. Lube oil will exit the hub at the drilled holes, and pressurize the cavity on the inside diameter of the direct clutch hub (615) .Because the housing is rotating, centrifugical force will assist the oil in making it to the direct clutch pack. Lube oil that passes between the slots and mainshaft to the second sealed “reservoir” and feed hole on the inside diameter of the direct clutch housing will still flow. However, the added oil supply won’t have to navigate around the restriction imposed by the direct clutch piston and return spring assembly it encounters with the production system.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/transm ... nsmission/

http://www.gmtuners.com/gmtransinfo.htm

http://www.tciauto.com/tc/6x-six-speed- ... 850hphtml/

http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/tr ... /4l80e.htm

http://extremeautomatics.com/gm4l80e.php

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/transm ... m#cxrecs_s

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/transm ... nsmission/

http://www.gearstar.net/transmissions/m ... catunid=11

heres a different guy with a 4l80e with an engine exceeding 800ft lbs
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=636&p=850#p850

heres a different guy with a 4l80e with an engine exceeding 1000 ft lbs and 1200hp
viewtopic.php?f=86&t=1328

Rear-Wheel Drive Transmissions

4L60-E

RWD 4-speed automatic with overdrive
159-176 lbs transmission weight filled
Gear Ratios:
1st -- 3.059
2nd -- 1.625
3rd -- 1.000
4th -- 0.696
Rev -- 2.294
Max Gearbox Torque: 670 ft-lbs STOCK



4L80-E

RWD 4-speed automatic with overdrive
260 lbs transmission weight filled
Gear Ratios:
1st -- 2.482
2nd -- 1.482
3rd -- 1.000
4th -- 0.750
Rev -- 2.077
Max Gearbox Torque: 885 ft-lbs STOCK



5L40-E

RWD 5-speed automatic with overdrive
186 lbs transmission weight filled
Gear Ratios:
1st -- 3.42
2nd -- 2.21
3rd -- 1.60
4th -- 1.00
5th -- 0.75
Rev -- 3.02
Max Gearbox Torque: 494 ft-lbs STOCK
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby Strictly Attitude » August 22nd, 2014, 7:13 pm

not talking it stock form in 6 speed form was the only problems I heard about them but like I said internet hear say I know lots of guys run the 4l80e with no probs
"IF YOU CAN SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!"

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Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby 87vette81big » August 22nd, 2014, 10:20 pm

There are similar guys with Single Turbo Pontiac 455's running 9's in 1/4 mile.
Factory Pontiac Iron heads used.
On my Pontiac Forums.
2-bolt main blocks. Near stock longblocks.
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Re: anyone have experience converting a 4l80E to full manual

Postby 87vette81big » August 23rd, 2014, 3:16 am

The one guys Corvette ET's dont add up to 976 Flywheel HP with 130 mph trap speed by the way Grumpy.
Bullshit Alert.
He has much less HP.
I don't believe any chassis dyno figures anymore. Like Phil.

1/4 mile or Numerous Engine water brake dyno pulls prove all.
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