turbo maps, and related turbo info



turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby grumpyvette » February 15th, 2009, 2:10 pm

ITS likely to take hours to read thru this info, but its well worth the effort

Im always rather amused at post like this that ignore or don,t realize that theres a whole lot more involved in adding a turbo to a car than simply bolting it on and driving away, and that cost of the turbo is PEANUTS compared to the MANDATORY accessories that are REQUIRED too get it to run correctly!


ok a few facts a turbo POTENTIALLY produces a great deal more power IF the engine combos set up to cope with and efficiently use a PRESSURIZED intake charge,of the correct fuel air ratio, or boost, this will require, and if your expecting the engine to last under high stress levels, at least MANDATE the use of changes that while they may at first seem UN-necessary will in the longer run obviously prove to be needed and if ignored can result in a great deal of damage being done that could other wise be avoided, or at least limited.
yes you-ll find a dozen guys who have just slapped a turbo on a stock engine and gotten remarkable power increases, but if you research further you'll often find those engines did not last more than a few months, as durability suffered under the higher heat and stress levels, and if your going to invest thousands of dollars in an engine I would expect it to last YEARS before it started puking very expensive parts on the pavement
COMMON CHANGES REQUIRED
totally different headers designed to mount a turbo, and a matching exhaust system with larger less restrictive pipe cross section
FORGED PISTONS, to deal with greatly increased heat
A TOTALLY DIFFERENT TYPE CAM with different cam timing, to properly use a turbo
YES THE TURBO ITSELF and related oil lines to cool it.
LARGER RING GAPS, to deal with greatly increased combustion heat
AN INTER-COOLER, set up to reduce the intake charge air temps.
an ignition boost sensors and ignition advance controller
heat barrier COATED PISTONS
LARGER INJECTORS and a larger more efficient fuel pump
A FORGED CRANK AND CONNECTING RODS while not always mandatory are usually a good addition
BETTER or larger more efficient radiator , for increased COOLING, A BETTER larger BAFFLED OIL PAN, and if your smart an auxiliary oil cooler



related info
http://www.forcedinductions.com/helpadvanced.htm

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=148730

viewtopic.php?f=86&t=5262

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced%20 ... ooler.html

http://www.turbochargedpower.com/

http://www.mez.co.uk/turbo1.html

http://www.ststurbo.com/

http://performancetrends.com/Calculator ... ulator.php

http://www.mez.co.uk/turbo1.html

http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/vemp_0402_ ... index.html

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/Turbo-compressor-maps.html

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=636&p=850#p850

http://www.smokemup.com/tech/turbo101.php

http://www.forcedinductions.com/help.htm

http://www.turborides.com/article13.html

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... ch103.html

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboflow.html

http://www.lovehorsepower.com/MR2_Docs/ ... w_maps.htm

http://www.automotivearticles.com/Turbo_Selection.shtml

http://www.mez.co.uk/turbo1.html

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1280

http://www.hondaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=29708

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2187

BUY THESE BOOKS< IT WILL SAVE YOU HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS AND WEEKS OF WASTED WORK

yeah I know most of you would rather be skinned alive and rolled in salt and alcohol, rather than read thru dozens of links and more sub-links, but for those who care to learn!!
and prefer not to be forced into doing it over at greater expense

Image
http://www.amazon.com/Turbo-High-Perfor ... rbos+books
Image
http://www.amazon.com/Turbochargers-HP4 ... rbos+books
Image
http://www.amazon.com/Turbocharging-Per ... ging+books
Image
http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Boost-Tur ... gy_b_img_z
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby grumpyvette » August 14th, 2009, 9:09 am

http://www.toohighpsi.com/

http://www.twinturbostang.com/

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_coolers.html

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index ... pic=4365.0

This is a list of all turbos that can be used for a twin turbo setup.

BUICK GNX 87 3.8L GAR TB0348
BUICK Monte Carlo/Regal 78-83 3.8L carbed GAR TB0348
BUICK Riviera 80-85 3.8L GAR TB0308
BUICK Grand National/T-Type 86-87 3.8L (Intercooled) GAR TB0348 (TA48)
BUICK Trans Am 89 3.8L GAR TB0348 (water)
BUICK Century 78 3.8L GAR TB0301
BUICK Century 79 3.8L GAR TB0304
BUICK Century 80 3.8L GAR TB0308
GMC Syclone/Typhoon 4.3L Mitsu TDO6 17C/10cm2

CHRYSLER Conquest, Intercooled 87 2.6L MHI TD05
CHRYSLER Laser (Auto) 90-94 2.2L MHI TD04 13g
CHRYSLER Laser (Manual) 90-94 2.2L MHI TD05H 14b
CHRYSLER LeBaron 89-92 2.5L MHI TE04H
CHRYSLER LeBaron 88 2.5L MHI TE04H
CHRYSLER New Yorker 88 2.5L MHI TE04H
CHRYSLER New Yorker 84-87 2.2L GAR TB0335
CHRYSLER Town & Country 88 2.2L MHI TE04H
CHRYSLER Town & Country 84-87 2.2L GAR TB0335
CHRYSLER Charger/Shelby 87-90 2.2L GAR TB03 (water)
CHRYSLER Shelby CSX-Daytona/Baron GTC/Shadow ES 89-90 2.2L GAR TB03 VNT (variable nozzle)

DODGE 600 88 2.5L MHI TE04H
DODGE 600 85-87 2.2L GAR TB0335
DODGE Aries 88 2.2L MHI TE04H
DODGE Caravan 89-90 2.5L MHI TE04H
DODGE Conquest (Intercooled) 87 2.6L MHI TD05
DODGE Daytona 89-92 2.5L MHI TE04H
DODGE Daytona Shelby 88 2.2L MHI TE04H
DODGE Daytona Shelby 84-87 2.2L GAR TB0335
DODGE Lancer 89 2.5L MHI TE04H
DODGE Lancer 88 2.5L MHI TE04H
DODGE Lancer 85-87 2.2L GAR TB0335
DODGE Omni 85-87 2.2L GAR TB0335
DODGE Shadow 89-92 2.5L MHI TE04H
DODGE Shadow 88 2.5L MHI TE04H
DODGE Shadow 87 2.2L GAR TB0335
DODGE Spirit 89-92 2.5L MHI TE04H

EAGLE Talon (Manual) 90-94 2.0L MHI TD05H 14b
EAGLE Talon (Auto) 90-95 2.0L MHI TD04 13g
EAGLE Talon (Manual) 95-98 2.0L MHI T25 (45 trim)

FORD Mustang GT 85-86 2.3L GAR TB0344
FORD Mustang GT/T-bird 83-84 GAR (AiR) TB0344
FORD Probe GT 88-92 2.2L IHI RHB52W
FORD T-Bird 85-86 2.3L (auto) GAR (AiR) TB0344 (45 trim oil only)
FORD T-Bird 85-86 2.3L (Manual) GAR (AiR) TB03 60 trim (watercooled)
FORD T-Bird 87-88 (water) IHI RHB52
FORD Fiesta 90+ 1.6L GAR T2
FORD Escort 84-86 IHI RHB5

MAZDA 626, MX6 88-92 2.2L IHI RHB52W
MAZDA 323 GTX turbo 88-89 1.6L IHI RHB52W (water)

MERCEDES 300D, SDT, TD 78-84 3.0L GAR TA0301
MERCEDES 300SDL 78-83 3.0L GAR TA0301
MERCEDES 300SDL (Calif.) 86-87 3.0L GAR TB0359

MERCURY Capri 85-86 2.3L GAR TB0344
MERCURY Cougar 85-86 2.3L GAR TB0344
MERKUR XR4Ti 85-88 2.3L GAR TB0344

MITSUBISHI Eclipse (Auto) 90-94 2.2L MHI TD04 13g
MITSUBISHI Eclipse (Manual) 90-94 2.2L MHI TD05H 14b
MITSUBISHI Eclipse (Manual) 95-98 2.0L MHI T25 (45 trim)
MITSUBISHI Galant (Manual) 88-94 2.2L MHI TD05H
MITSUBISHI Starion (Intercooled) 85-87 2.6L MHI TD05

PLYMOUTH Acclaim 89-92 2.5L MHI TE04H
PLYMOUTH Caravelle 88 2.5L MHI TE04H
PLYMOUTH Caravelle 85-87 2.2L GAR TB0335
PLYMOUTH Conquest, Intercooled 85-89 2.6L MHI TD05
PLYMOUTH Laser (Auto) 89-94 2.0L MHI TD04
PLYMOUTH Laser (Manual) 89-94 2.0L MHI TD05H
PLYMOUTH Sundance 89-92 2.5L MHI TE04H
PLYMOUTH Sundance 88 2.5L MHI TE04H
PLYMOUTH Sundance 87 2.2L GAR TB0335
PLYMOUTH Voyager 89-90 2.5L MHI TE04H

PONTIAC Sunbird GT 88-90 2.0L GAR T2
PONTIAC Sunbird GT 84-86 1.8L GAR T2
PONTIAC Grand Prix 89-90 3.1L GAR T25 (water)

SAAB 9000 (16V Intercooled) 87-88 2.0L GAR TB0356
SAAB 900 (16V Intercooled) 87 2.0L GAR TB0339 (Oilcld)
SAAB 900 (16V Intercooled) 84-86 2.0L GAR TB0339 (Oilcld)
SAAB 9000 (16V Intercooled) 85-86 2.0L GAR TB0343
SAAB 900 (8V, APC) 82-84 2.0L GAR TB0321

VOLVO 200 82-84 2.3L GAR TB0313
VOLVO 740 89-93 2.3L MIT TD04H
VOLVO 740 87-89 2.3L MIT TD05
VOLVO 760 89-93 2.3L MIT TD04H
VOLVO 760 87-89 2.3L MIT TD05
VOLVO 780 85-87 2.3L GAR TB0363
VOLVO 780 90 2.3L MIT TD04H
VOLVO 780 87-89 2.3L MIT TD05
VOLVO 940 91-93 2.3L MIT TD04H
VOLVO 200 Watercooled Upgrade 82-84 2.3L GAR TB0368
VOLVO 740 (Oil Cooled) 83-85 2.3L GAR TB0326
VOLVO 740 (Watercooled) 85-87 2.3L GAR TB0363
VOLVO 760 (Oil Cooled) 83-86 2.3L GAR TB0326
VOLVO 760 (Watercooled) 85-87 2.3L GAR TB0363

VW Passat, 97+ (oil) 1.8L GAR GT15

GAR=Garrett=AiResearch, MHI=Mitsubishi Heavy industries, MIT=Mitsubishi


Note that most of them are for engines between 2 and 3 liters. These are the best size for a 5 liter because 2 of them would equal between 4 and 6 liters.

For questions about the Mistubishi turbos, Turbostangman will probably be able to answer them, because he has designed a kit with them and works with them in his business.

Most guys run Ford Knockoffs, notably the 69 trim models because they move more air in the upper RPMS, and don't run out of steam.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby grumpyvette » November 11th, 2010, 6:28 pm

Turbo compressor maps and calculating turbo compressor sizes
found this info online that may be useful

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"What you need to do is find you airflow rate based on : your desired boost (PSI) engine size and engine redline. you need to find your Airflow rate at two points first point is at redline second point is usually at 75% of redline or where ever the compressor hits full boost, whichever is at a lower RPM. All you need to know is basic math, add, subtract, multiply and divide. you'll deal with different units of measurement (lb,cfm,psi) lets start:

Basics you will use these numbers later on
PRESSURE RATIO = (14.7 + desired PSI) / 14.7 = PR
convert CFM to LB per MIN = CFM x 0.070318 = LB/MIN (@ sea level and 112 degrees*)
LITERS TO CUBIC INCHES DISPLACEMENT = # of L's x 61
CFM = Cubic Feet per Minute

now using my car as an example:
2.2L (134.2 cid), 7400 Redline, desired boost is 10 PSI

#1 CALCULATING AIRFLOW RATE AT REDLINE and 10 PSI
cid = Cubic Inches Disp.
VE = Volumetric efficiency in percent
.5 = (given) 4-stroke engine fills cylinder only on one-half the revolutions
1728 = converts cubic inches to cubic feet

Airflow in CFM = (cid x rpm x .5 x VE%) / 1728 = CFM no boost
CFM x PR = CFM under boost


so for my Lude:
PR = (14.7 + 10 ) / 14.7 = 1.69
Airflow = (134.2 x 7400 x.5 x .95) / 1728 = 272.99 CFM (no boost)
272.99 x 1.69 = 461.21 CFM under 10 PSI

now since most compressor maps have their flow rates in LB/MIN we need to convert CFM to LB/MIN. A cubic feet of air (length+width+height) weighs different at diff. Altitudes and different temperatures. to simplify it well just assume we are at sea level and the air temp is 112 *. the conversion number is 0.070318.

so for CFM TO LB/MIN = CFM x 0.070318 = LB/MIN
461.21 x 0.070318 = 32.44 LB/MIN

so here we have:
BASIC ENGINE FLOW RATE = 272.99 CFM
ENGINE FLOWRATE with 10 PSI = 461.21 CFM (32.44 LB/MIN)
PRESSURE RATIO (PR) = 1.69

so now we know our flow rate in LB/MIN
a 2.2L with 10 PSI of boost at 7400 RPM (redline)
flow rate = 32.33 pounds of air per minute (LB/MIN)
PR = 1.69
with me still? this is POINT NUMBER ONE. now we do the same for 75% of redline and 50% of redline.

#2 CALCULATING AIRFLOW RATE AT 75% RPM RANGE

now we will find the airflow rate at 75% redline = 5550 RPM (0.75 x 7400 = 5550)

(134.2 x 5550 x .5 x .95) / 1728 = 204.74 CFM no boost
204.74 x 1.69 = 346.02 CFM under 10 PSI

346.02 x 0.70318 = 24.34 LB/MIN

BASIC ENGINE FLOW RATE = 204.74 CFM
ENGINE FLOWRATE with 10 PSI = 346.02 CFM (24.34 LB/MIN)
PRESSURE RATIO (PR) = 1.69

#3 CALCULATING AIRFLOW RATE AT 50% RPM RANGE

As you may already know the point at which the compressor reaches full boost is largely determined by the Turbine side. but I usually calculate a third point just incase. I plot this third point on the compressor map this way if boost comes way early (50% redline) I know where I lie on the map.

50% of redline = 3700 RPM (0.50 x 7400 = 3700)
(134.2 x 3700 x .5 x .95) / 1728 = 136.50 CFM no boost
136.5 x 1.69 = 230.69 CFM under 10 PSI
239.69 x 0.070318 = 16.23 LB/MIN

BASIC ENGINE FLOW RATE = 136.5 CFM
ENGINE FLOWRATE with 10 PSI = 230.69 CFM (16.23 LB/MIN)
PRESSURE RATIO (PR) = 1.69

GATHER YOUR DATA

we have just figured out our engine's airflow rate at 3 RPM points (redline, 75% and 50%) you only need 2 at the minimum but you can use as many points as you want.

POINT 1 (7400 RPM)

FLOWRATE with 10 PSI = 461.21 CFM (32.44 LB/MIN)
PRESSURE RATIO (PR) = 1.69

POINT 2 (5550 RPM)

FLOWRATE with 10 PSI = 346.02 CFM (24.34 LB/MIN)
PRESSURE RATIO (PR) = 1.69

POINT 3 (3700 RPM)

FLOWRATE with 10 PSI = 230.69 CFM (16.23 LB/MIN)
PRESSURE RATIO (PR) = 1.69

these are the three points you will start referencing onto the different compressor maps, ideally you want all three to be within the highest percentile in the compressor map.

using this map of a T04E 60 trim first let me explain all the numbers on the map
1-left side, pressure ratio
2-bottom side, airflow rate (LB/MIN on this map)
3-dotted line on far left side of "ovals", surge limit
4-numbers on far right, 46020, 69640, 83972 etc, compressor RPM (yikes)
5-78%,75%, 74%, compressor efficiency, this is related to the temp of air, a low number (60%) means that the compressor is heating the air more a high number (78%) means the air is not heated as much when it is compressed.


NOW all you have to do is take the each RPM point and put them on the compressor map, use the airflow rate and PR wherever they intersect is where the point will go. ideally you want all points to be in the highest Comp. Eff. %, especially the redline and the 75% redline points.

go ahead and give it a trry, but thats pretty much how you select compressors if any of the points lie:
-in a low Comp Eff %
-in the surge limit
-too high a Comp. RPM
you need to look at a different Compressor map cause the one your looking at is, not correct"
http://www.forcedinductions.com/product3.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... ch101.html

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... ch102.html

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... ch103.html

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... /faqs.html

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboflow.html

http://www.forcedinductions.com/help.htm

http://www.turbominivan.com/tech/turbo201.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... rgers.html

http://www.aleromod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29324
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Posts: 14105
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby grumpyvette » November 12th, 2010, 8:08 am

Image
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http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... 1_of_2.pdf
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... og2of2.pdf

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... _2_new.pdf

btw just because I was curious ,I just ran thru the math and a 454-468 BBC would most likely require TWO GT4088 turbos that list new on EBAY at about $1200-$1700 EACH, now theres several turbos that would work correctly,and OBVIOUSLY youll want to discuss the exact turbo you select with the tech guys before ordering, but the best fit I see is the GT4088 and THEY will require a inter-cooler that costs $ 1000-$1200, but in a correctly built engine you should reasonably expect more than 1000hp, with the correct inter-cooler, heads and cam ETC.
while that sounds rather expensive (IT IS) its not a bad deal, because an 871 supercharger is priced at about $3700

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/sup ... ng/181958/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WND-7186P/?rtype=10
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby grumpyvette » April 22nd, 2012, 3:23 pm

"Turbo 101 - some info about GARRETT turbos"

Disclaimer: All of the following is correct to my knowledge. Please feel free to jump in and correct anything that is wrong or feel free to add anything. This post is pretty long, but hopefully it will help out some newbies that are getting into turbochargers.
There seems to be some confusion about there about what all of the numbers mean when looking at a turbochargers specs. Awhile back, BlueShadow wrote an excellent post on how to read a compressor map. Find that post, read it, and combine it with this one...voila, you'r a guru! (not really)

Garrett makes several "families" of turbochargers that are targeted for different sized engines, HP goals, and drivability characteristics. Crafty tuners, manufacturers, etc, have mixed and matched these components to produce hybrid turbos that can provide the benefits of several turbo families. The possibilities really are endless, but I'm just gonna list some common ones or else this post would be reeeeeeallly long.

Turbocharger families
The T25 family = super fast spooling "small" turbo that makes good low rpm torque, but lacks top end power. This turbocharger is commonly used where throttle response and low rpm torque are desired without much regard to high rpm power.

The T3 family = "intermediate turbo" that spools slower, but has the ability to make substantially more power than the T25 family. This turbocharger has been used on A LOT of production vehicles (Ford, Nissan, Volvo, Saab). They can make impressive power, but were known to be laggy.

The T04 family = "big turbo" that makes huge power, but is very very laggy. Without the beauty of being able to make a hybrid turbo, a T04 would probably not even be an option.

The 3 main components that have the biggest impact on performance are the a/r of the turbine housing, the size (aka trim) of the tubine wheel, and the size (aka trim) of the compressor housing.

Common turbine housing a/r "sizes"
T25: .64 a/r, .86 a/r
T3: .36 a/r, .48 a/r, .63 a/r, .82 a/r
T4: not listed...see why later

(CivicRyda2K's addition)
Common compressor housing a/r "sizes"
T3: .42 a/r, .50 a/r, .60 a/r, .82 a/r
T4: .50 a/r, .60 a/r, .70 a/r


In a nutshell, the larger the a/r, the later the power comes. A small a/r gives you a fast spooling turbo but limits top-end power. A large a/r gives you a laggy turbo with big top-end power.

Common T25 turbines:
DSM trim (?? not sure how big it is, but it's quite small)
60 trim (small)
76 trim (medium)

Common T3 turbines:
Stage 1 (small -- most common turbine on junkyard turbos)
Stage 2 (med)
Stage 3 (large -- most common turbine on new T3/T04 hybrids)
Stage 5 (very large)

Common T04 turbines:
I'm not gonna list any because I don't have info on them and the T4 turbines require so much exhaust energy to spin that they are practically unusable in our application unless you want insane lag and have got a motor that will spin to 10k every day.

Common T25 compressors:
I'm not gonna list any. I do have some info on them, but for the most part, a T25 compressor will struggle to stay in its efficiency range on a boosted Honda.

Common T3 compressors:
40 trim (20lb/min -- haha...don't even think about it)
45 trim (21lb/min)
50 trim (30lb/min -- probably one of the most common on junkyard turbos, works well for SOHC and LS engines)
60 trim (34lb/min -- biggest "production" T3 compressor, excellent power on D series/LS) <=== my old turbo
"Super 60" (36lb/min -- note: this is NOT the "60-1" compressor)

Common T04B compressors:
S trim (37 lb/min)
V trim (48 lb/min)
H trim (49 lb/min)

Common T04E compressors:
40 trim (36 lbs/min)
46 trim (41 lbs/min) <=== my new turbo
50 trim (47 lbs/min)
54 trim (45 lbs/min -- note that the 54 trim flows less than the 50 trim)
57 trim (49 lbs/min)
60 trim (50 lbs/min)

Common T04S compressors:
60-1 (flows a shitload, never seen a compressor map for it)
62-1 (bigger yet -- I believe this is a T04S compressor...correct this if it is wrong)


Performance (listed in order of increasing performance):
A T25 is a straight T25 turbo --> T25 turbine + T25 compressor
A T28 is a hybrid T25/T3 turbo --> T25 turbine + T3 compressor
A T3 is a straight T3 turbo --> T3 turbine + T3 compressor
A T3/T04B is a T3/T04B hybrid turbo --> T3 turbine + T04B compressor (used in Drag kits)
A T3/T04E is a T3/T04E hybrid turbo --> T3 turbine + T04E compressor (more performance than T3/T04B
A T3/60-1 is a T3/T04S hybrid turbo --> T3 turbine + T04S (60-1) compressor


MORE INFO


http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml

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http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboflow.html

http://www.turbofast.com.au/turbomap.html

http://www.automotivearticles.com/Turbo_Selection.shtml

http://www.turbofast.com.au/javacalc.html

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html


, ITS not a random guess its an easily calculated figure that you need to know to get the cars engine to run to its full potential, knowing the cylinder head port flow rates and compression ratio and cam timing will help a great deal, here, an engine will burn between 12.6 and about 15 pounds of air for every pound of fuel, the flow rate you need will be fairly easy to calculate if you know the approximate hp level your dealing with.
I don,t know why but its common for guys to assume they can install bigger heads and a radical cam and a free flow exhaust and still keep the stock injectors, the truth is that you MUST maintain a max .80 duty cyscle and a 12.5:1-13:1 f/a ratio and that can easily require a significantly larger than stock injector size upgrade
the sub links in the thread below have 90% or more of the info, youll need the stock computer will require you stay with similar TYPE of injector,
(HIGH IMPEDANCE)
measure your current injector resistance its most likely near 12-14 ohms, thats what the computer wants to see, you can get 24lb, 30lb, 32lb, 36lb,38lb, 40lb, 42 lb,44 lb etc. what you need is an injector that supplies fuel at about 80% pulse duration and about 42 psi of fuel pressure that will supply your horsepower level at about a .50 BSF level
lets assume your building a 450hp engine

THERES DOZENS of SOFTWARE programs to help you estimate your combos power potential,

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=2301&p=15105&hilit=dyno+software#p15105

if that was the power range it will require about a 36lb injector ,but a 39 lb or 44 lb would give you some growth room for the future,I,d suggest you use the calculator to verify, but keep in mind the computer varies the pulse duration (the amount of time the injectors spraying fuel based on sensor input like engine temp and oxygen sensor feed back, it can shorten the pulse far easier than it can add fuel above the 80% duty cycle so its best to select the injector size as close to what you need as possible but if your in doubt its better to go up a small step that get an injector that maxs out flow on the upper rpm ranges leaning out the engine to much, a slight too rich mix hurts mileage a slightly too lean mix might damage rings and pistons
GASOLINE 6.073 pounds per US Gallon.
http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx

Divide the pounds of gas used per hour by the horsepower that is produced.


Use the following example equation as a reference for your calculations:
An engine produces 200 horsepower while consuming 80 lbs. of gasoline (13.17 gallons)in an hour. Therefore, 80 divided by 200 would equal a BSFC of 0.4.


http://www.witchhunter.com/injectorcalc1.php4
To calculate the injector size for a particular application:
Injector Flow Rate (lb/hr) = Engine HP(1) x BSFC(2)
Number of Injectors x Injector duty cycle(3)

Or
Injector Flow Rate (cc/min) = Engine HP(1) x BSFC(2) x 10.5
Number of Injectors x Injector duty cycle(3)

Inj Flow Rate (@ 40psid) Naturally Aspirated hp
19 lb/hr 258 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle
24 lb/hr 326 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle
30 lb/hr 408 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle
32 lb/hr 435 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle
39 lb/hr 530 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle
42 lb/hr 571 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle
47 lb/hr 639 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle
60 lb/hr 816 hp @ 85% Duty Cycle
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » January 21st, 2014, 12:23 pm

if you like online calculators heres a great one with turbo maps for most all of the popular stock and aftermarket turbos, just input a few parameters about your engine such as displacement, BSFC, horsepower goal, and choose a turbo based on the preplotted maps it shows you

(i hand jammed alot of combinations over the past decade or so and i can tell you this thing is pretty accurate by my math) be modest with your BSFC if you want realistic real world results from combinations derived from this calculator tho.

http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby grumpyvette » January 21st, 2014, 2:48 pm

maybe I'm just having a bad day, but I can,t seem to get the calculator you posted the link to to work???
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » January 21st, 2014, 3:22 pm

hmmm, maybe i can step by step it... input whatever parameters you want there in user inputs, im sure you got all that. then scroll down to the list of turbochargers, if you wish to run multiple turbochargers choose on the tiny dropdown menu that says # of turbochargers (it just cuts all your parameters in half) then select any of the turbochargers on that list. just click on a turbo by its nomenclature and below you should get a compressor map with plotted points on it, dots connected, in red.

if a turbo is selected and you click a new one or you wish to change parameters above it may not refresh the map automatically, no need to fear below the list of turos theres a REFRESH MAPS button you can click on to get the new stuff input to the map
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » January 21st, 2014, 3:24 pm

this should be what you see at the bottom of the page once youve selected everything

Image
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby grumpyvette » January 21st, 2014, 3:38 pm

OK I EVENTUALLY FIGURED OUT THE BASICS
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » January 21st, 2014, 3:41 pm

right on :)
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » February 4th, 2014, 7:40 pm

Alot of emphasis is put on selecting the right compressor housing for your application. which, by and large, is extremely important when selecting a turbocharger for a particular build. however, choosing a rear housing is equally important, if not more so.

based on a variety of factors from cylinder head flow, powerband, ignition and cam timing, exhaust design (before and after the turbo) and wastegate style and boost metering style are all going to come into account when we estimate exactly WHEN the boost is going to come in

for an indicator as to what size turine (rear) housing and (a/r) to use, we can go to the manufacturers who have turbos in stock applications for guides. most stock turbo cars from the late eighties were all designed the same way (grand nationals, thunderbirds, 300zx, etc). that is to say, most of these relatively low powered turbo cars were designed with cam profiles, compressor and turbine sizes to keep them really efficient in the daily driving rpm ranges that they were probably going to live in most of their days. this way the argument could easily be made that turbos were making engines more efficient.

more to the point of the conversation, if we look at a turbo like the early 300zx design, that was a 3 liter motor, the front housing was undersized for a race application but at the stock .5 bar and the cruising around aplication it worked great. the rear housing was a .63 a/r on these cars and at WOT ive seen full (7psi) boost by about 3300 rpm.

if we take this information and extrapolate then we can say that a 6 liter motor would get similar results with two of these turbos. but thats only part of the story... a modern 6 liter like a newer lq4 or lq9 or ls2 ingests alot more air and has much more aggressive cam setups than two of those old VG30's.its also an all around more efficient motor. however what will remain true is that with two .48 a/r rear housings (OR ONE .96 A/R) WE CAN BE FAIRLY SURE THERE WILL BE 7PSI ON THE GAUGE AT OR ABOUT 3300 RPM.

t3/t4/t6 housings:

dimensions of the flanges:
t3
t3 dimension.gif

t4
t4 dimension.gif

t6
t6 dimension.gif



in one hand i can hold a t3 rear turbine housing thats a .96 and in the other a t4 housing thats a .84 and the t4 will be structurally bigger than the t3!! regardless of the aspect ratio. the t4 flange is larger and has more air flow capacity regardless of its a/r because of its design. same with the t6 vs the t4. these larger flanges and bodies exist to alleviate the symptom of the turbo becoming a jake brake at high rpm (also helps to have a good wastegate to help bypass exhaust flow even more) this way we get more exhaust flow for bigger engines while still being able to keep our quick response and fat torque curves of the smaller (numerically) a/r's.

ill post up some more tomorrow apparently were gonna go catch a race early tonight... lets make some money.
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Last edited by philly on February 6th, 2014, 6:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby grumpyvette » February 4th, 2014, 8:58 pm

Thanks you sound like your rather more familiar than most people with the basic concepts so Id sure appreciate any and all valid input and if your willing some examples.
lets say, as an educational tool,so you can help us less experienced guys work thru the math and options, list a few sources and potential good and a few stupid choices and why you see the choices made, effect the total build.
yes Ive built and help work on at least 7-8 serious turbo charged engines over the years , but I'm always willing and eager to learn all I can, and confirm what I see works
I wanted to build a 8:1 static compression 496 big block and run it at 7-8 psi max up to about 6500rpm and limit the EFI to (8)85 lb injectors and a 1200cfm rated throttle body, what size and type of turbos (TWO) , and what size inter-cooler, would you think would provide the best power curve if I was looking for decent power in the 3500rpm-6300rpm power band, and decided to use E85 fuel/?
Ill do a few calcs just to see where I,D LAND BEFORE WE DISCUSS WHERE I MIGHT SCREW IT UP?
Ive found that a great deal of careful research and following previous combos that resulted in effective and durable engines beats the hell out of randomly slapping parts together so I have always strongly suggested extensive research, to be done prior to buying parts
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » February 5th, 2014, 12:56 pm

grumpyvette wrote:Thanks you sound like your rather more familiar than most people with the basic concepts so Id sure appreciate any and all valid input and if your willing some examples.
lets say, as an educational tool,so you can help us less experienced guys work thru the math and options, list a few sources and potential good and a few stupid choices and why you see the choices made, effect the total build.
yes Ive built and help work on at least 7-8 serious turbo charged engines over the years , but I'm always willing and eager to learn all I can, and confirm what I see works
I wanted to build a 8:1 static compression 496 big block and run it at 7-8 psi max up to about 6500rpm and limit the EFI to (8)85 lb injectors and a 1200cfm rated throttle body, what size and type of turbos (TWO) , and what size inter-cooler, would you think would provide the best power curve if I was looking for decent power in the 3500rpm-6300rpm power band, and decided to use E85 fuel/?
Ill do a few calcs just to see where I,D LAND BEFORE WE DISCUSS WHERE I MIGHT SCREW IT UP?
Ive found that a great deal of careful research and following previous combos that resulted in effective and durable engines beats the hell out of randomly slapping parts together so I have always strongly suggested extensive research, to be done prior to buying parts


sure thing grumpy, first of all looking at a mildly built 496 with some form of massaged factory head on it im gonna take an educated guess that with e85 and the right pair of huffers it takes about 8-10 psi to get to the magical 1000 hp mark. im also gonna go ahead and guess yo knew that which is why you threw the 85lb injector out there. however with e85 a couple game changing things happen: we run a much richer lambda (air fuel ratios between 8-9:1 are typical) and cram much more fuel than regular gasoline in the cylinder. for a clean 1000 hp without maxing out your injectors i would recommend a set of 120lb injectors for e85. even though e85 has higher octane properties than pump gas i do agree with your 8:1 static ratio because of the big block factory chambers resistance to knock is alot like that of the datsun L series motors (that is to say is doesnt resist knock worth a shit in stock form HAHA) and you can always play with your dynamic compression ratio if you want to push the envelope some later.

check out this worksheet calc from RC injectors if you want to know what size injectors to use with regular gas: http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx#Fue ... Worksheet_ and then add 30-50% injector flow rate for e85 to stay in the same duty cycle range

however i think everyone needs to do alot more reading about e85 (myself included) before we make a whole thread on that, lets get to the meat and potatoes of the question: what turbos and why?

i used the squirrelpf turbo calculator to come up with this combo because its really easy to use if you let it be with its calculations... http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/

a couple things i like to change on this to give myself a better chance of accuracy:

i always change BSFC from the preset .43 to something like .50 or .55 depending on the engine im working with because i dont work with engines that have a .43 BSFC

i always use .7psi intercooler loss for every 10 lbs of boost because i think thats a more realistic figure from experience.

target air fuel for e85 purposes i plug in 9:1 and for 93 octane i plug in 12:1 because thats typically where tuners agree "happy" is for turbo applications (what about race gas? i never use it, because my customers and i drive all our race cars around and we need pump friendly fueling so i dunno)

i leave the preset volumetric efficiencies and intake temps alone, but i do adjust the rpm ranges depending on the combo. for this example you gave me i used a 6500rpm redline, peak power at 6000, max boost at 2500 and min boost at 2000.

i chose those points for min and max boost because i figured you would probably be using a 2500-3000 stall convertor anyway so loading the car at the starting line and building boost pressure to max (7 or so psi) would be easy to do and safe for the turbo compressors (not to the left of the surge line on the compressor map).

do not forget to select the appropriate number of turbochargers you intend to use over to the right of the turbocharger selection table (up to four)

i already had a couple choices in my head that i thought would work based on the fact that i see compressor maps on the back of my eyelids but i was surprised that only one series of turbos met my criteria for how little boost we needed and how early we needed it, matched with us needing an ungodly amount of airflow compared to most other small turbos we can run reasonably in a twin configuration. lets look at one of the maps i thought would work but did not:

the TD0616G: i thought this turbo comes on cyclones and typhoons and should be relatively easy to score used, mitsubishi heavy industries makes great turbochagers that last forever with the proper care so yea, lets see how it falls on the map...

Image



see where the dots on the map move off the right side of the compressor islands? most compressor maps stop mapping islands under 55-60% so while you probably wont be damaging the turbo much, but you will notice much hotter intake air temps because of the inefficiency of the turbochargers.
this turbo seemed like a great idea in my head but mentally i grossly overestimated the amount of airflow this guy was capable of for this combo (gonna need to efficiently do 1100-1200 cfm and thats 550-600 per turbo).


so i figured ok, philly, we can get the TD0616G turbos, take them to a reputable turbo shop and have the compressor wheel changed for the higher flowing TD0620G configuration, get new seals installed in the process and itll be a win win...

Image

wrong again, still not enough air flow to support the combo efficiently. again, if we were in the surge limit of the combination i would immediately abort the idea because you can actually break things very quickly with compressor surge, and if your turbocharger is not a cheap ebay piece, it hurts to break it. hurts your pocket, and hurts your turn around time to get back on the street.

so i thought since those were the better options for factory take offs and they werent up to snuff lets try a popular aftermarket turbo that we can stll get cheap ebay copies of for budget purposing:

to 62-1 compressor from turbonetics:

Image

voila, we are able to reach our goal of working early enough on the map to get that low rpm boost build we need without surge and the turbo will carry us all the way out to about 600cfm at our current boost pressure... but wait it gets better:

leave everything else the same and change your desired HP to 1500 and you get this

Image

still working well within the confines of the map with a fast boosting efficient turbocharger setup. so with this turbo we can grow with the combination as we want to make the car faster and replace those factory heads with some aftermarket pieces, and keep boosting it to make more and more power, we have room without having to change turbos and likey lots of exhaust and intake pipes.
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » February 5th, 2014, 1:04 pm

http://www.turboneticsinc.com/store/ind ... uct_id=573

heres the turbonetics ordering website where you can score a custom built 62-1 with a t4 rear for the gobs of flow we will be producing for under a grand MSRP, if youre interested in actually building this project, grumpy, hypotheticals aside, i could probably get you better pricing than this.

and heres an ebay chinese type that specs out similarly and probably would work great for about 1/3 of the money

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T4-62-1-turbo-7 ... 04&vxp=mtr

in my experience with ebay tuurbos, run a good, big, cone filter from k&n on the mouth, make sure the oil is clean and you arent surging and the turbo should last and last.
-phil

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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby 87vette81big » February 5th, 2014, 1:17 pm

Damn Phill.
You Are The Single & TWIN TURBO GUY TO BREAK 4,500 HP on The Street.
Just 1/2 pass WOT Power Required. Shut Her Down early &collect the $100 K.
$10k pays off the 5' O.


Only problem with E85 is its not a true consistent corn alcohol batch to batch percentage.
Can vary 10 points either way.
Need a way to Dielectric test fuel to tune correct.
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