turbo maps, and related turbo info



Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » February 6th, 2014, 3:41 pm

87vette81big wrote:You Datsun guys know how to spank a normally aspirated sbc , BBC, and Poncho V8.
You have me thinking Phil.

:mrgreen:



by and large datsun z guys are slow in the drag racing department... that is to say without a motor swap. when something freakishly fast comes around on the old inline 6 (125+mph trap speed) everyone claims its bullshit and it cant be done, because they didnt think of it first. so theres a niche of people who have consistently built fast turbo cars over the years that just dont care to talk to these clowns that think they are experts because they read a couple used books off amazon.com also what my buddies and i run into alot is we didnt start with datsuns, we started with fords and chevys and then discovered z cars... and alot of the science thats commonly acceptable as "perfect" combinations like motors are safe at 11.5:1 AFR and ignition timing shouldnt be above 18 degrees is all bullshit that some guys put out there and made gospel so they can nerf the competition. if i know i can run 24 degrees of timing at 26psi it would benefit me to look like a bad ass if i managed to lie and convince everyone that 18 was the threshold and they arent making as much power as me because i am just magically better at this than they are.

the worst part is there are people making money "tuning" other peoples cars to 11.5:1 and 16 degrees total all over south florida, and they do it to SBF, SBC, L series, honda, 2JZ toyota, and LSX motors... as if the same rules applied to all engines all the time... they are leaving in some cases HUNDREDS of horsepower on the table!
-phil

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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby 87vette81big » February 6th, 2014, 3:46 pm

Just a mechanic myself here Phil.
Have been around many different racing groups in my time.
I like the odd......
Hell I am Pontiac guy with a C4 roadster Vette.
Nothing wrong with Datsuns. I like them.
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » February 6th, 2014, 3:54 pm

87vette81big wrote:How about piston selection for Turbo use Phil.
I never have been a fan of ultralight pistons.
Want them ultra strong.
How far should the top ring groove be located down from the top dome surface?
Gas ports work ?
Drilled pin oiling mods?
Diamond custom pistons my personal choice. Set of 10 made.
Like thermal barrier coatings ?
Tool steel wrist pins or 4140 Chrome Moly ?


If i wanted to build a turbo motor for high (20+ psi) abuse I would build one with a custom piston to accommodate the longest off the shelf forged rod i could fit in there within my budget. if you call diamond they can make you pistons specific to big cylinder pressures that have special top ring sizes made to protect against blow by but really all that stuff is not necessary to make the power thats winning real races between real street cars. theres guys making 1200-1500 horsepower with an off the shelf forged rotating assembly and off the shelf heads with an off the shelf cam and an off the shelf intake because they cant articulate in english what custom parts makers want to know to build custom parts. thermal coatings and oil squiters and all that shit are just ways to give your ego a little masturbation in my opinion. i dont think any of those things hurt the engine, except oil squirters, that shit causes windage, but so many people are making the power without all those fancy bells and whistles it begs the question: why bother?

pertinent to your earlier comments i personally have no desire to build or drive a 4500 hp car... or a 2250 hp car for that matter. If you drive or ride in a light car (3000 lbs or less) that makes 900-1200 lb ft and ACTUALLY GETS DOWN AND HOOKS ON THE STREET i think you will genuinely reconsider wanting so much power. i know i did. i dont want a race car... i want a really really fast street car that i can still go get a slice of pizza with on the beach at night.
-phil

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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby 87vette81big » February 6th, 2014, 4:00 pm

Diamonds for dead on blueprint specs.
They are best.
Ross went hell.
Talk later Phil. My parts are here. Finish my workday.

BR
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » February 6th, 2014, 4:01 pm

87vette81big wrote:Just a mechanic myself here Phil.
Have been around many different racing groups in my time.
I like the odd......
Hell I am Pontiac guy with a C4 roadster Vette.
Nothing wrong with Datsuns. I like them.


i hear you, man, i love fast stuff! i havent been able to give full credit where credit is due yet but theres a couple guys with naturally aspirated honda four bangers FRONT WHEEL DRIVE that race from a stop on the streets and cut low 10 second et's NATURALLY ASPIRATED. i just generally cant carry a conversation with the type of person that drives those things but when they arent around to hear me i compliment them.

same with mopars, i think mopars are some of the most beautifully designed muscle cars but i cant afford most of the shit i would actually want to own. and the guys who can afford it are typically quiche eaters that dont know their jet sizing from a hole in the ground...

sitting around all weekend polishing their clear coat with an inverted huggies diaper. i just cant talk to those people! its so bad i wouldnt want to be associated with most of those people.
-phil

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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » February 12th, 2014, 12:59 am

grumpy, as an addendum to he e85 conversation we embarked on earlier in this thread, i made mention of the fact that e85 tuners run between 6-9:1 AFR with e85... i want to clarify that statement because i realize now that it can be misconstrued...

in a boosted application:

WHEN YOU ARE USING A WIDEBAND AFR GAUGE THAT IS MADE FOR E85 you will be rich at about 6.5:1 and lean at 8.5:1 WOT

WHEN YOU ARE USING A WIDEBAND AFR GAUGE THAT IS MADE FOR GASOLINE you will be rich around 11:1 and lean at 12.7:1 WOT

WHEN YOU ARE USING A WIDEBAND THAT IS JUST READING THE LAMBDA TO YOU on e85 a lambda of .710 is on the rich side and .780 on the lean side WOT

this is where alot of internet peoples are getting all in a tizzy about e85 because they dont know what the heck the little numbers on the gauge are trying to tell them!

and that right there is all the keys you need to unlock the universe of tuning a car with e85....
-phil

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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » February 12th, 2014, 1:03 am

as far as timing goes for e85 i generally get alot more aggressive with the timing while in vacuum than most people do but under boost it may be a two or three degree difference over 93 octane all depending on the application.
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » February 12th, 2014, 1:07 am

then again the amounts of timing my friends and i use are already considered asinine by most "professional tuners" out there so caveat emptor i guess
-phil

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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby grumpyvette » February 12th, 2014, 10:00 am

Philly, when I get my finances in better shape I think we need to talk about the potential of building a 496 big block twin turbo set up to produce a reliable, 900-1000hp , now I know that can be done, and Ive always preferred building high durability rather than trying for big bragging numbers
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » February 12th, 2014, 11:34 am

sure thing just let me know, im just down the road a piece so anything you need just holler
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » March 22nd, 2014, 1:40 pm

an update grumpy for your big block turbo build... i think we may soon be embarking on that endeavor here only on a much more junk yard grenade status... however i came across this from crower:

http://www.crower.com/chevy-396-454-tur ... -4595.html

we will probably be sliding this in our junkyard 454tt setup... if we actually go through with it... i think we are going to end up using the gt45 knockoffs on ebay with larger than i would like rear housings, in the hopes that we can keep traction issues out of the hole to a minimum.

expect a gotech ecu to control that action and atleast 1200 wheel horsepower... 2700 ish pound car with driver


im not sure if the build is even gonna happen but we saw some scary fast cars last night and realized we need to step up are game if we are going to ever get out of the kiddie pool and swim with the big fish.
-phil

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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby grumpyvette » March 22nd, 2014, 2:06 pm

JUST FOR A POINT OF DISCUSSION HERE
THAT CAM YOU LINKED TOO HAD THIS TIMING


Duration @ .050" Lift: Intake / Exhaust 226 / 212
Lobe Lift: Intake / Exhaust .300 / .288
Rocker Ratio: Intake / Exhaust 1.7 / 1.7
Gross Valve Lift: Intake / Exhaust .510 / .490


why would you not select a cam with a bit more or less lift or duration,
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » March 23rd, 2014, 3:06 am

grumpyvette wrote:JUST FOR A POINT OF DISCUSSION HERE
THAT CAM YOU LINKED TOO HAD THIS TIMING


Duration @ .050" Lift: Intake / Exhaust 226 / 212
Lobe Lift: Intake / Exhaust .300 / .288
Rocker Ratio: Intake / Exhaust 1.7 / 1.7
Gross Valve Lift: Intake / Exhaust .510 / .490


why would you not select a cam with a bit more or less lift or duration,



i saw that cam as a cheap way to slide a decent turbo cam in the car, if we do the deed with our junkyard 454 price is a major factor is parts selection. the low exhaust duration matched with small primaries on the header (if we do this we will use a tri-y setup) will keep velocity of the gasses high and the cheap and oversized turbos spinning. i am running off of assumtions that the motor is gonna be a low compression pig since we dont have a motor yet but the 049 big block heads dont flow alot more in stock ish form with more than a .500 lift as it is. that is to say the difference in flow from .500 lift to say .800 lift isnt going to net us the gains to justify the loss of bottom end grunt. and we arent going to spin the motor very high in the name of longevity.
-phil

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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby 87vette81big » July 9th, 2014, 7:18 am

With $$ tight for all of us Phil I think I would choose a
5.3 Liter LS Chevy Truck Engine.
Twin Turbo charge it.
You can find a used 5.3 L V8 for around $200-300 around me.
Buy the entire truck for $500-700.
Strip it down & sell what you can.
Scrap the rest.
I think you can easily double or triple your purchase price.
And have the 6-bolt main LS 5.3 V8.
They run strong as is.
Not much less torque than the 5.7 & 6.0.
Turbo charging will add another 500-800 Ft/lbs in powerband everywhere.
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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby philly » July 9th, 2014, 9:14 pm

any truck motor will do... but the voltures down here where im at have driven the price up to between 500 (long block) to as high as 1800 (motor tranny wiring harness) for the 4.8's and 5.3's.... a 6.0 or bigger? add atleast another 50-100% on top those prices. in a small car like 3000 pounds or less, the 4.8 is where its at... you get more useable rpm band without sacrificing the torque if you use the right cam and turbo size.
-phil

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Re: turbo maps, and related turbo info

Postby grumpyvette » September 9th, 2014, 4:17 pm

now admittedly, I have limited experience building turbo charged engines, having only helped on several of my friends cars , mostly building the engines or partial engines to match agreed upon configurations.
and yes theres a great deal of related info posted earlier in this thread to help.
but we may as well get a discussion about the basic strategy, and parts selections.
you guys with more experience can and should post info WITH REFERENCE LINKS , diagrams and pictures to back up any suggestions as that will be useful

1) how do you select a basic displacement, bore & stroke combo and compression ratio
2)how do you select the cylinder heads, port size.
3)what rotating assembly, crank ,rods, pistons, rings ETC.(obviously forged) but related info on set-up and clearances, ring gaps, heat coating, is welcome
4) Header design, Size and construction
5) Crossover tube design, size and construction
6) How do you choose the correct turbocharger make and model/flow map,and boost range
7) Exhaust system basics feeding the turbo and leaving the turbo to exit the car
8) Waste gate selection ,installation and optimal performance
9)intake manifold and throttle body selection
10) injector size and type selection
11) heat shielding
12)intercoolers
13) engine cooling & lube system designs
14) turbo lube supply
15) cams designed for turbo tend to have equal or lower duration on the exhaust to keep exhaust gas speed high and a
112-116 lsa to limit intake flow of fuel/air pressure exiting the exhaust
16) the fuel lines and injectors will need to be calculated at near 85% duty cycle and BSFC of near 65%
17) AN#8 fuel lines and 200 GPH, or larger fuel pumps at 40-60 PSI are normal
18) how to select rearing and converter stall speeds
19) solid copper head gaskets and ARP head studs are suggested as cylinder pressures are noticeably higher than N/A
20) BLOW OFF VALVES, bov, settings and size and location

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1200

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=2718&p=35581&hilit=octane+booster#p35581

viewtopic.php?f=86&t=9078

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=4516&p=11935#p11935

viewtopic.php?f=86&t=4402&p=11579&hilit=intercooler#p11579

Image
Image
from an engineering perspective on the exhaust side feeding the turbo, a 1.75" -to-2" exhaust port in a typical cylinder head,would need a primary header tube that would ideally feed a collector of about twice its cross sectional area too maintain high exhaust gas speeds, so in theory all four cylinders should feed a 2.75" exhaust collector feeding the turbo input, on a dual turbo set-up, obviously you cant fit 4 2" pipes into a 2.75" collector but you can use a collector and reducer to maintain exhaust gas velocity
on the intake side thats pressurized you'll want less flow restriction ,so fairly large intake runner cross section in that manifold and a throttle body thats not a restriction and head ports and tubing feeding any inter-cooler would be almost mandatory, but keep in mind as the pressure differential changes so does the flow numbers, a throttle body that may be rated at 1000cfm at 1.5" of mercury may flow 2500cfm at 15 psi of boost

http://www.burnsstainless.com/321sstubing-5.aspx
http://www.burnsstainless.com/mc4-188-dst-321.aspx
321SS stainless
Image


OK a few tips I have found to start,
the exhaust headers feeding the turbo must be constructed from heat resistant stainless
header primary should ideally be short, fairly close to equal length and have the inside diam. cross sectional area just large enough to not block the exhaust port exit.
header flanges should be a minimum of 3/8" to ideally 1/2" thick to reduce warping

AS ALWAYS A BIT OF RESEARCH WON"T HURT

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calchpb.htm

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calcplv.htm

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboflow.html

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/calcboost.html

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/intercoolers.htm

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... %20103.pdf

http://www.turbofast.com.au/turbomap.html

http://www.turbofast.com.au/javacalc.html

http://www.stainlessheaders.com/flanges

http://www.stainlessheaders.com/turboheader

http://www.jegs.com/i/Stainless-Works/8 ... Id=1197917

http://www.lovehorsepower.com/joomla/in ... &Itemid=88

http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Boost-Tur ... nk22192-20

http://www.amazon.com/Turbochargers-HP4 ... o+charging

http://www.amazon.com/Turbocharging-Per ... o+charging
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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