Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block



Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block

Postby greenmile » January 21st, 2011, 4:49 am

Hello, i recently stumbled over this nice option and would have a few questions(Read the available links before asking!!)

There is lots of info using such a system in turbo and supercharged engines.

However on natural aspirated engines, carbureted NON EFI(Like in my case) there is not much i can find in terms of benefits (Performance improvement, how much potentially ??), mostly people use it to avoid "knocking issues" and overheating problems.
The second issue is that our old small blocks do not use any electronics motor management.Only useable input for a adjustable system i can think of is vaccum and RPM
Third i would like to use this system as an ON/Off solution, only using it at WOT(If that makes sense), as driving on street i do not want to carry around a huge tank, which would be needed if system is used continuesly.

My Thinking would be:

Install that system as a one stage system(Two injection nozzles):

=>Use Vaccum as input information to activate the system when Engine drops below certain vaccum level (= WOT) and secondaries of Carb are opening.
=> Forward static ignition (Should not create knocking issues as waterinjection is active !) over present level
=> Inject into Manifold

My Engine: 383,650CFM Edelbrock,HEI Distributor,Edelbrock Air GAP RPM manifold, Probe FPS forged Pistons, 10.5:1 Static compression, 97 Octane Fuel being used as standard fuel.
Would be interested if anyone has a similar application and can report on experiences, appreciate any useful input !!


THX
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Re: Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block

Postby DorianL » January 21st, 2011, 5:22 am

I can share my experience.

I run water/meth with my centrifugal. Single nozzle - 50/50.

Boost referenced, I set it to come on progressively from 5 PSI which is quite conservative. I have an underhood idiot light telling me it is coming on. This allows me to run 36 degrees with no detonation. Since one rarely gets into boost or WOT the water/meth lasts forever...

I'd say yeah, should keep you out of detonation.
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Re: Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block

Postby greenmile » January 21st, 2011, 10:31 am

Hy Dorian,

thanks for your feedback !!

Sorry don't understand what you mean with centrifugal ???
I would like the system without any Boost as i am not going to use supercharger or turbo or whatsoever. Therefore i can not use any boost signal for activation purposes.
I also do not have detonation problems right now (Running 37 at WOT) with 97 Octane and AFR alu heads.
I was more looking for this waterinjection to give me some extra power at WOT.

Is it worth the effort ???

Regards
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Re: Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block

Postby grumpyvette » January 21st, 2011, 10:47 am

IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block

Postby greenmile » January 21st, 2011, 11:14 am

Yes Grumpy, this helps in terms of explaining what centrifucal means, thx :-)))))

But how about my other issues/Questions, do you think the whole water stuff makes sense without chargers ?? (Assuming i am aiming at performance gain, NOT trying to solve detonation and/or thermal issues)

Thx
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Re: Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block

Postby grumpyvette » January 21st, 2011, 11:30 am

your idea about going to water/alcohol injection, in a non-supercharged engine, is only being used to cool the combustion temps and reduce the need for a higher effective octane level of fuel, it would seem to me that its a whole lot easier to just either, use an octane booster like toluene added to the pump gas your using,or use of a fuel like E85 that already has the required detonation resistance.
if you can be more specific about what your trying to cure or what advantage it may provide I can probably find a good deal more related info, but I can,t see any advantage to using the water/alcohol injection unless its needed to allow the engine to reach its full power potential.


BTW alcohol in fuel tends to cause aluminum to oxidize over time

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block

Postby DorianL » January 21st, 2011, 12:30 pm

To prevent detonation, you take advance out. Power lost. Water/meth allows you to restore the advance + cool and gives a denser charger. The power gains will not be mind boggling... but it will keep you out of detonation.

That being said, it will last longer than adding octane booster every tank...
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Re: Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block

Postby grumpyvette » January 21st, 2011, 12:41 pm

DorianL wrote:To prevent detonation, you take advance out. Power lost. Water/meth allows you to restore the advance + cool and gives a denser charger. The power gains will not be mind boggling... but it will keep you out of detonation.

That being said, it will last longer than adding octane booster every tank...


thats a very valid point in that the price of toluene has gone up about 150%-200% in the last few years.
E85 may now be a cost effective alternative, especially if used as a potential component or ingredient in a small tank of fuel to be used LIKE water/methanol to injection into an engine

WATCH THE VIDEO
http://www.aemonly.com/water-methanol-injection-18/

http://www.wildbillscorvette.com/OctaneSupreme01.htm

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=4381&p=11507&hilit=ethanol#p11507

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=613&p=6025&hilit=ethanol#p6025

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=2141&p=5780&hilit=ethanol#p5780
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block

Postby DorianL » January 21st, 2011, 12:45 pm

you could set it up with a vacuum switch and or a WOT micro switch on the carb linkage. There's a cool factor for sure BTW.
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Re: Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block

Postby greenmile » January 24th, 2011, 5:06 am

OK Guys, here is what i have been thinking.

Water injection i am interested in is because it is real cheap for the equipment (500$). And as doriant said its kinda cool :mrgreen:

Here is my logical chain in detail:

I am now running at 36Degrees advance without injection.(No detonation issues)
If i do injection i can further ADVANCE the ignition, ending up with more power(How much is the big question??)
Is there a safe assumption that x-degrees more advance results in y-more Power(HP or/and torque ??)
I only want to use the system at WOT or slightly below.
As Doriant said i would use vaccum and/or micro switch(When secondaries are opening=Activation) for activation signal.(There for sure is a lot to discuss how best tuned such a system can work in combination with a standard carburetor...)
As much as i understand it, there is not only the added power advantage of advancing ignition as also some additional "Pushing effect" on the pistons when the water is evaporating together with the standard fuel during ignition. If i do it this way, i also would not need a big tank as consumption would be not really high.
There is a guy here in Germany using it on a comarable engine, claiming he reduced his fuel consumption by 25% and also has better performance(The big miracle i know....)
As for E85, you dont have enough fuel stations providing it in Germany.Therefore no option for me as i use the car not for racing but for street.
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Re: Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block

Postby DorianL » January 24th, 2011, 5:39 am

You might read an improvement on the dyno but I doubt you fill feel any difference, especially if you are already at 36 degrees. For sure, there will be a cooling effect and denser charge. (Important for supers.) However naturally aspirated, most of the power gain is from advancing spark.

He reduced his gas mileage by 25% city - what, driving at WOT? He uses it all the time?

The only thing that I can see is if you/he are/was already in detonation but could not hear or feel it. That can happen. Then the water/meth for same advance can restore power that you can feel.

What are the specs of your engine and car - gearing, etc. If yer after more power for $500 there might be better options.

D
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Re: Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block

Postby grumpyvette » January 24th, 2011, 9:53 am

greenmile wrote:OK Guys, here is what i have been thinking.

Water injection i am interested in is because it is real cheap for the equipment (500$). And as doriant said its kinda cool :mrgreen:

Here is my logical chain in detail:

I am now running at 36Degrees advance without injection.(No detonation issues)
If i do injection i can further ADVANCE the ignition, ending up with more power(How much is the big question??)
Is there a safe assumption that x-degrees more advance results in y-more Power(HP or/and torque ??)
I only want to use the system at WOT or slightly below.
As Doriant said i would use vaccum and/or micro switch(When secondaries are opening=Activation) for activation signal.(There for sure is a lot to discuss how best tuned such a system can work in combination with a standard carburetor...)
As much as i understand it, there is not only the added power advantage of advancing ignition as also some additional "Pushing effect" on the pistons when the water is evaporating together with the standard fuel during ignition. If i do it this way, i also would not need a big tank as consumption would be not really high.
There is a guy here in Germany using it on a comparable engine, claiming he reduced his fuel consumption by 25% and also has better performance(The big miracle i know....)
As for E85, you dont have enough fuel stations providing it in Germany.Therefore no option for me as i use the car not for racing but for street.



Image
AEM’s Boost Dependent PN30-3300 Water/Methanol Injection kit
Water/methanol injection for gas engines is a proven means for effectively reducing engine inlet air temperatures
and suppressing harmful detonation on forced induction and high performance naturally aspirated race engines.
This allows racers to reliably increase boost and advance ignition timing—without using high-octane racing fuel—for power gains of up to 20%.
For more in depth info and specs click link. http://www.saccitycorvette.com/AEMMethI ... nkits.html
only $429.95


AEM’s Naturally Aspirated (N/A) PN30-3350 Water/Methanol Injection.
Good for 5-10% HP increase on N/A engines.
http://www.saccitycorvette.com/AEMMethI ... itsNA.html
only $429.95
your basic LOGIC that advancing the curve, will always increase power, has a FATAL FLAW, any pressure built over the piston BEFORE TOP DEAD CENTER reduces power, the ignition is advanced to compensate for the slow combustion chamber burn and pressure build, in the cylinder so that as the piston passes over TDC there is adequate pressure, above the piston,to do work, but because of the time lag from ignition to full pressure that means that 10-20% of the pressure builds before the piston passes TDC effectively reducing the usable cylinder pressure past tdc., and because 80% plus of the usable pressure is in the cylinder from TDC to only until the pistons about 30 crank degrees down the bore, that severely limits the available torque.advancing the ignition timing at some point just adds pressure and shifts the pressure above the piston as it approaches TDC,forcing the engine to work harder to produce less power, reducing useful,power .
recent FAST BURN head designs produce better power because they shift more of the pressure build to past TDC, in an ideal engine and fuel combo you would have 90%or more of the pressure building slightly past TDC and increasing rapidly after TDC, until about 90 crank degrees past tdc (one reason nitromethane is so useful in making power is its tendency to burn like that while supplying its own oxygen)
gas produces its best power at about 12.7:1 fuel air ratio, and burns completely at about a 14.7:1 ratio,the ricjher mix extends the burn and pressure past TDC. but the compression ratio, combustion chamber design, distance from the ignition point to the cylinder wall, and the quench & squish will effect the burn characteristics.
one reason the HEMI engines make good hp is the central located spark plug that minimizes the burn time and flame front delay burning across the full length of the cylinder.



Image
Image

http://www.sdsefi.com/techcomb.htm

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/avm-30-3000

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3qD6pYT ... re=related

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4081&p=10861#p10861

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4081&p=11104&hilit=quench+squish&sid=8019a11f1e490c2d8b18a7b91574680c#p11104

http://forums.evans-tuning.com/viewtopi ... ion+timing
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block

Postby greenmile » January 24th, 2011, 12:38 pm

Hy Grumpy, i think you have found my error.

I was stupidly assuming that more advance = Better power.
BUT there is a point(As you explain) where more advance will mean LESS power.

For the sake of the argument let us assume that my perfect power output for my egine is 36Degrees, advancing it further would then not help me anything, rather loose power.
Therefore i also do not get any benefit out of the waterinjection, assuming that at 36Degrees i am not running into detonation issues(Which for sure i will not with my 10.5 compression, rather mild CAM tuned for torque, AFR Alu heads and 97Octane fuel).

Thx for that!!

=> DorianL, the guy i was talking about uses it ALL the time, probably he sees the gains he is stating (And i believe him) because there is something not well tuned with his combo....
PS: If you feel there are better means for increasing power for 500 bucks let me know (Forget N20 not allowed in germany)

PPS: Will post as i promised my dyno numbers soon from my fresh built up 383 (next 3 weeks)
Regards and thanks for the help!!
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Re: Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block

Postby DorianL » January 24th, 2011, 4:22 pm

I'm thinking converter, change in gears, etc. Stuff that German mot can't spot that easily.
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Re: Water and methanol Injection into Gen1 Chevy Small Block

Postby greenmile » January 25th, 2011, 2:22 am

Oh that :-), mine is a manual trans(4Gear). Going to 5 gear tranny shift is allready at my list(But you dont get that for 500 bucks....). Therefore i will not change any gears now(Would be waste of effort).

If somebody has a good Tremec TKO 500, i would be very pleased to take it if the price is right.....

Regards,
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