thinking about running E85 in your old muscle car?



thinking about running E85 in your old muscle car?

Postby grumpyvette » September 20th, 2009, 9:54 am

69MyWay posted this info


Don't do it.....
You are going to kill your fuel tank, rubber, and metal lines...as well as the inner workings of the carb, that were never designed to work with E85 in those older cars, yes It will run fairly well in the short term,due to its high octane, but it will also tend to cause major rust/corrosion issues and problems over time, in older muscle cars
.


• Ethanol is electrically conductive, where as pure
gasoline is die-electric (non-conductive). When
ethanol fuel blends are used in higher concentrations
the electrically conductive properties of ethanol
can cause accelerated corrosion within the
fuel system.

• Ethanol is both hygroscopic (attracts water) and
miscible (easily mixes with water). Ethanol fuel
blends can attract/absorb water from a variety of
sources after manufacturing and blending. This
affinity for water can accelerate corrosion within
the fuel system and engine. Moisture can promote
the creation of certain acids within the fuel and
motor oil that are also detrimental.

• Ethanol (especially at higher concentrations) is incompatible
with some metals used in the fuel systems of
some non-Flex-Fuel vehicles.


• High concentration ethanol fuel blends are incompatible
with polymers, rubbers, elastomers, plastics, polyesters
and natural materials (leather, cork) used in
fuel systems (particularly older vehicles, motorcycles,
boats and utility equipment). For more information
see: http://www.carterfueldelivery.com/fuelpumps/
_pdfs/support/TEC1621_E85.pdf

• Non-Flex-Fuel vehicle powertrain controls and fuel
systems are not calibrated to use fuel with high ethanol
content. Therefore, vehicle function and performance
could be negatively affected.


E85 is meant to be used in Flex-Fuel vehicles. Their engines, fuel, emission and engine management systems are
specifically designed to be “Flex-Fuel” capable.

Running a non-Flex-Fuel vehicle on E85 or a blend of gasoline and E85 (especially over an extended period) can
cause extensive damage.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: thinking about running E85 in your old muscle car?

Postby grumpyvette » September 21st, 2009, 6:32 am

86atc250r posted this info
"The fact of the matter is that if you run better (or same) on E85 as gas, your mixture for gasoline is WAY off.

Stoich for gasoline is ~14.7:1. Stoich for E85 is roughly 9.7:1 --- this means you need more E85 for every part air taken into the engine - roughly 35% more (i.e. 35% drop in MPG).

While E85 does have less energy per gallon than gasoline, you burn more of it with every revolution of the engine so the energy output is roughly the same - you just get a MPG drop off as compared to a properly jetted gas setup.

Also, the burn rate of E85 is different than that of gasoline, so you will need to optimize timing in order to squeeze the power out of it - This is where computer controlled timing comes in handy.

All in all, if all you do is change to E85 and hope for the best, you are bound to lose power & efficiency unless your engine is very poorly setup for gasoline and just happens to hit the mixture and timing requirements of E85 by blind luck --- if so, you might want to consider buying a lottery ticket or two.

Alcohol has some properties you can take advantage of, but if you don't take advantage of them, they don't help you. One of those is it's cooling effect. This is a big positive to the > 1 Bar crowd. It also has a higher octane rating which allows the use of higher compression ratios (which in turn allow you to run a wilder cam, etc), very high compression setups also benefit from the additional cooling. Again, if you don't take advantage of this with your base engine build, it's not an advantage.

Other things to bear in mind are of course, as mentioned previously - ethanol is corrosive, there is a very good chance that the mention above of plugging fuel filters was due to the gradual stripping of the inside of the fuel lines and/or possibly plastic tank liner. Ethanol's lubricative properties are also not nearly as good as gasoline.

FWIW, if your mixture is correct on gasoline and you switch to E85 with no changes, you will be dangerously lean and could cause substantial engine damage when at WOT and heavy engine loads. That's not to say it will happen, but you are setting yourself up for it unless you were way rich in the first place.

As with everything in life, E85 has advantages and disadvantages, and as with everything else we do with our engines, care must be taken to set the engine up to take advantage of E85's special properties or you're just throwing power and efficiency away.

If you want to switch between gas and e85, you really need to be fuel injected so you can easily change your timing and jetting to accommodate the fuel (or do it automatically via a sensor and dual maps). If you plan on running strictly E85, I would suggest building a high compression or boosted setup and spending some time on the dyno do dial in jetting and ignition timing."
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: thinking about running E85 in your old muscle car?

Postby grumpyvette » September 21st, 2009, 6:43 am

69MYWAY & 86atc250r
did a good job of pointing out the potential problems and those are VERY VALID points, I ran alcohol in race engines in the past and in my opinion the potential power benefits don,t warrant the problems, with corrosion and the cost of parts upgrades in the fuel system on a street driven car.

but if you must convert heres some valid related info

http://members.tccoa.com/392bird/carbtech.htm

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=4111&p=10917#p10917

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/t ... index.html

http://blizzard.rwic.und.edu/~nordlie/c ... oline.html

http://e85vehicles.com/converting-e85.htm

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=73061

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id26.html

http://www.journeytoforever.org/biofuel ... drane.html

http://www.flexfuelkit.com.au/articles/ ... Page1.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25936782//

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=613&p=1379&hilit=ethanol#p1379

even locating a steady supply of e85 can be tricky at times

http://www.e85locator.net/
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
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Re: thinking about running E85 in your old muscle car?

Postby grumpyvette » August 3rd, 2012, 11:44 am

http://www.raceone85.com/

http://marksullense85carburetors.com/

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=613

KEEP IN MIND WHEN READING THRU THIS INFO THAT E85 IS SLIGHTLY CORROSIVE AND ATTRACTS MOISTURE, and requires about 12.5:1-13:1 compression and about 30% higher flow rates ,minimum to burn effectively and see power gains compared to standard pump gas. has anyone else noticed the fuel you get from the local gas stations is causing problems?
I,m seeing a good deal more rust and oxidized metal causing carburetor problems,EVEN WITH E10,
Ive seen several guys having rather,obvious corrosion issues in the carburetors of muscle cars that don,t get driven a great deal with the current fuel, and Ive had to replace my weed trimmers, carburetor for similar issues , it seem s that much of the current fuel is less stable over the longer term, its probably that 10%-15% ethanol but its beginning to show up as a suspected cause in a lot of the tuning issues I see, at a far higher frequency that the older fuel caused, especially when I disassemble and inspect carburetors.
its looking as though the fuel separates over time, into a semi corrosive mix.
as long as your constantly adding fresh fuel and your driving the car regularly and changing the filters and oil regularly, and provided you add some of the corrosion inhibitor and lubricant additives to the fuel any time the car sits for a few days you can LOWER the corrosive effects on the engine

BTW alcohol in fuel tends to cause aluminum to oxidize over time

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
Due to the instability of gas containing alcohol, shelf life is less than 3 months according to the fuel manufacturers, this is a HUGE issue with engines that don,t get used constantly like lawn equipment, or rarely driven muscle cars

yes if your willing to make several changes to your fuel supply system, e85 fuel has a higher resistance to detonation and can make good hp,

theres several additives that are supposed to make use of ethanol laced fuel far less corrosive,
Image
Image
if you find a really good additive that works 100% let me know , we have ETHANOL FUEL LACED GAS AND ITS KILLS SMALL ENGINES LIKE LAWN MOWER CARBS AND PRESSURE CLEANER CARBS, in the mean time heres a list of gas vendors that only sell alcohol free fuel
ETHANOL FREE FUEL
http://www.buyrealgas.com/

BTW IF YOU WANT TO AVOID ETHANOL LACED FUEL

http://pure-gas.org/

http://www.raceone85.com/

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=613&p=1379&hilit=octane+booster#p1379

Q & A About E85:

Q: Why should I switch to E85?

A: E85 is a renewable fuel source that is also environmentally friendly. Its performance is comparable to race gas at a fraction of the cost. Your engine will run cooler and your ETs will be less affected by atmospheric changes. E85 is not corrosive like methanol and does not leave carbon deposits like gas so maintenance is reduced across the board. With the proper tune-up your oil stays looking like new.

Q: What is the difference in ethanol and methanol?

A: Both fuels have an excellent intake air charge cooling effect. Ethanol (grain or ethyl alcohol) is a biofuel made through the distillation of renewable resources like corn, sugar cane and switch grass. Yes, this is the same process they use to make alcoholic beverages like liquor. Fuel ethanol is 180 proof when produced. 15% regular 87 octane gasoline is added to E100 to add a little lubricant as well as ease the initial cold startup. Methanol (wood alcohol) is produced through a chemical process. By its nature methanol is more corrosive and provides 35% less energy then E85 so you have to burn 35% more of it to make comparable power. E85 cost the same or less then regular unleaded gasoline, methanol cost $4.00 - $5.00 a gallon.

Q: What type of performance can I expect from making the switch to E85?

A: It has been our experience that E85 with its 105 octane rating and high tolerance to detonation is superior to premium pump gas and equal to and in most cases better than 110 octane race gas. We picked up a tenth of a second and 2 to 3 miles per hour in the eighth mile after switching to E85 from 110 race gas and our engine runs 20 degrees cooler.

Q: Don’t I have to replace all the “rubber” in my fuel system so it want be eaten up by the alcohol in E85?

A: NO!!! We started out on this journey with a complete gasoline system. We upped the flow 30% to compensate for the lower heat energy output of ethanol and left everything else the same just to see the effects. We switched to E85 at the end of the 2006 racing season and to date we have found zero deterioration or corrosion anywhere in our fuel system. We leave it in the system all the time. We don’t drain anything between races or use any type of fuel lube.

Q: How much compression can I run with E85 fuel just the way it comes out of the pump at my local station?

A: This is one question I don't have a concrete answer for. We are running it in engines up to 14.5:1 naturally aspirated and some fairly high boost forced induction applications with great results. I have seen charts that draw the line at 16:1 but there again I just don’t have the data yet of a failure directly due to the compression limit of pump grade E85 being reached.

Q: Where can I find E85 in this area?

A: You can find E85 in any area by logging onto http://www.e85fuel.com and just click on your state for a list of stations that carry it.


1. No matter what type of fuel system you are running you must increase flow (volume) by roughly 30% over a (gas) setup. This is more than just increasing the main jets (in a carburetor) by 30%. Flow must be increased throughout the whole system and fuel curve. Generally speaking one jet size represents a 4.5% change in a Holley type main jet.
2. Start out with your total timing the same as on gas then adjust for best mph.
3. Water temp. needs to be 140 - 150 degrees when you pull into the water box and at least 160 degrees when you stage. Your jetting is close when you gain about 10 degrees in the 1/8th and about 20 degrees in the quarter.
4. If you have the luxury of tuning with a wide band air/fuel ratio meter we have found that it is very easy to use the lambda scale. We tune for 1 at idle and .82 to .83 @ WOT for best (safe) power. If you use an EGT meter to tune with you know that ideal temps. will vary greatly from one combination to another. It has been our finding that if you keep it below 1500 degrees while you are sorting out your tune up you don't have to worry about hurting anything in the process. We have found that most naturally aspirated combinations end up making best power around 1250 degrees on E85. Forced induction applications usually run 100 to 200 degrees hotter. If you need a good "inexpensive" EGT meter check out http://www.ifamilysoftware.com/8307.html
5. E85 has a high resistance to knock but lights off easy so it is susceptible to pre-ignition. A non protruding tip plug is recommended. Autolite Racing plugs with the cut back strap work well for us. We run AR-133 with the blower, this is a little cooler then you would need for natural aspiration. When reading your plugs look for them to be real clean with a little tan color down inside the threads on the porcelain. If no color appears after the first couple of runs, jet up until some starts to show then adjust jetting for best mph from there. Here is a helpful cross reference chart. http://www.autolite.com/pdf/RacingCrossRef.pdf

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp ... ewall.html

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=613&p=6025&hilit=toluene#p6025

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=10500&p=44355&hilit=bearing+clearances#p44355
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Joined: September 14th, 2008, 1:40 pm
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