be sure your fighting the correct fight!



Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby grumpyvette » August 27th, 2011, 1:30 pm

youll never believe this one

sister-in-law,s audi starts running rough in hot weather,
she brings it to the dealer ... who tells her its going to cost $2000 PLUS to replace the gas tank, because its not allowing fuel flow, a new tune-up, some injector cleaner, new oil change, air filter,new fuel filter, plugs, and gas cap all for under $200 cures the problem.

Im sure, they will tell her the defective gas tank was caused by not lubricating the tail pipe bearings, its all her fault!
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby grumpyvette » September 9th, 2011, 10:03 pm

one of my friends calls me up to tell me about a real p.i.t.a. problem he was having with an intermittent ignition miss that never was consistent on his 1970 GTO
hes got some aftermarket HEI type ignition that was driving him insane because it would run crappy for the first few minutes to occasionally, hours of run time then suddenly it would correct itself and run flawlessly for days until the next time he drove the car,after it sat for a few days, it acted like the plugs needed to get hot or, the car had water in the fuel tank,or moisture in the ignition components that needed to burn off once the engine got up to temperature, or something but because once it started running correctly it was nearly impossible to locate the problem, and it almost always seemed to clear up.well a step by step check and verify approach did lead to the answer.
anytime your dealing with a potentially electrically related problem ,Id suggest you start by cleaning the battery terminals and cable connections carefully, a great many problems blamed on battery's and fuses are basically high resistance or intermittent connections, then use a multi meter to see what your dealing with
he had swapped plugs and rotor, distributor caps , ignition wire, etc. played with the ignition advance curve several times.
this intermittent issue really started to bug the crap out of him so he followed some of my advice in one of the threads and measured the battery voltage, did an alternator check, cleaned the ground connections, measured the ignition wires, and a dozen other things and took notes then went back and measured things again once it started running correctly which eventually led him to the problem..the problem was that the ignition was VERY susceptible to input voltage changes and the battery had some weak cells it was 5 years old and it took 15-30 minute's before the alternator charging the system gave it a charge level high enough to allow the ignition to function flawlessly , one the battery was fully charged everything functioned, but if the weak cells was drawing to much power and drawing down the voltage , the ignition ran like crap.
he eventually noticed a correlation between batter registered voltage and the miss.
he eventually found this out as the battery charge took longer and longer and he noticed the direct relationship , once he had over 13.3 volts everything ran great , below 13 volts it ran like crap, he swapped to a new battery and the problem went away.
one reason it was difficult to track down was he had an auxiliary electric cooling fan that would draw a good deal of current, when it ran and that was sensor controlled and only came on if coolant temps exceeded 220F that fan would draw the battery charge level down, over time, and only slowly over time if the car sat idling, if the car was cruising it rarely came on and even when it did the engine speed seemed to spin the alternator fast enough, that the alternator speed plus moving air flow caused that fan rarely turned on if the weather was reasonably cool.
once he realized the problem he also upgraded the alternator and says it made a noticeable difference in how the car starts and runs even with the new battery.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby grumpyvette » December 2nd, 2011, 11:53 am

thankfully some problems sound far worse than they are! :cry:
my wife tells me the car started running like crap :shock: and making a noise like a bucket of marbles bouncing in the clothes drier, Im thinking :roll:
(OH! CRAP I CAN,T AFFORD THIS NOW)
I look at the engine carefully when she gets home, about 1/4 of the inner edge of the serpentine belts frayed, shreds are whipping around as it rotates and the reason is that the the belt tensioner bearings have failed so the belt tension-er wheel is riding at an angle , a new belt tensioner, a quick diagnoses, a trip to the local NAPA DEALER, getting screwed for $93 for a belt tensioner and new serpentine belt, a few minutes replacing the parts, a new belt and plugging the MAF sensor back in that a flying bit of serpentine belt unplugged resolved the problem...THANK YOU LORD! :mrgreen:
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby Indycars » December 2nd, 2011, 12:16 pm

I'm thinking that even I could have diagnosed that one ! :D
Rick
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Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby grumpyvette » December 19th, 2011, 4:54 pm

bill called and asked me to look at his truck, it has leaked oil since he did an oil change yesterday, and he says the filters good and snug, well I get it up on the lift and the cause is rather obvious, theres two oil seal ring gaskets, its obvious the old one stayed stuck to the oil filter mount and came off the old filter and he screwed on the new oil filter that has its own gasket, when the two compressed against each other the seal was not maintained as one squished out of alignment,
Image
if youve changed a few dozen oil filters youve most likely seen one of those gaskets stick, and you sure won,t be the first guy to install a filter with either two gaskets or no gasket and have a resulting leak in either case.
that minor mistake cracks me up and brings back memories of a neighbor who used a spare oil filter from his previous car on his new truck, who had a similar rather messy smokey problem when the wrong filter failed to seal correctly, hey we all screw up at times its how we learn!
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby grumpyvette » December 20th, 2011, 6:55 pm

I'm sure theres not a single person out there that has not overlooked the obvious stuff at times, I was over at a friends house for a few minutes while he tried to start his new Pontiac 428 engine in his 1966 GTO, that he spent the last three years partly rebuilding, and this week he has the engine installed that he rebuilt,but after cranking it, and not getting any effective response from the engine unless I used starter fluid into the Holley 750cfm vac secondary carburetor , I suggested he check his fuel pressure and float levels, I get this stupid smile and then he says hold on, and goes rushing out to his other cars trunk, and returns with two 5 gallon cans of fresh high test gas, and a long funnel, he then filled the completely empty fuel tank with fresh fuel and after only a few seconds the carburetor started to get fuel, struggled then fired up, its amazing how much better breaking in a cam seems to go with fuel reaching the carburetor ......hey we all get excited , I had him stop and verify the oil, coolant levels and trans fluid levels , and brake fluid and vacuum hoses, firing order and ignition timing, and had him run a garden hose over the radiator to increase cooling capacity while the car sat in his drive way,after that, then once it fired up we very quickly lashed the valves, (he will need to go back and fine adjust it once the cams broken in but !'m sure its very close) and had that really great sewing machine sound of a big Pontiac V8 with a solid lifter flat tappet cam, and watched oil dribble from the rockers, at idle, just for a few seconds then, we replaced the valve covers,and he spent 20 minutes running the engine between 2300rpm-3000rpm, and took it for a short drive. just to be sure!
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby Indycars » December 20th, 2011, 7:15 pm

It's always funny when it's someone else or sometimes later we can look back and laugh at ourselves.

I rebuilt the top end of my motorcycle at 15 years old. All excited to see it run with double the HP (yah right). Put fuel in it and tried to start it.....nothing. My dad was there offering help when he could, but not paying alot of attention. I knew there was 3 things you needed for it to run, compression, spark and fuel. Checked all those things yet nothing, I was SO UPSET that I couldn't take it anymore after a couple of hours and went inside to steam. About 15 minutes later my dad came inside and asked me which container I used to put gas in the tank. CRAP, I GRABBED THE KEROSENE. We used kerosene to clean parts with then.

Drained the kerosene out and put gasoline in and it fired up. Damn motorcycle wouldn't run on kerosene!

Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby grumpyvette » March 23rd, 2012, 5:53 pm

Bob came by with a buddy of his that has a 1967 Pontiac GTO, with a slightly modified 455 Pontiac engine,(better edelbrock heads, intake headers and crane cam upgrades, plus a 4.11:1 rear gear ratio,and 4l80e trans, the car had an annoying ignition miss, which was tracked down to fouled spark plugs, that he had only had in the car for about 12,000 miles, but he freely admitted adding several cans of both octane booster and injector clearer to the same tank of gas as he thought when the miss started it might be a partly clogged carburetor.
additives can be useful, but pouring 2 cans of octane booster and two cans of injector cleaner in the same tank of gas is not likely to promote good results.
luckily he was down to a 1/4 tank so after swapping and gaping plugs I had him fill the tank with fresh fuel and the car is back running as it should.
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby Indycars » March 23rd, 2012, 6:07 pm

grumpyvette wrote:Bob came by with a buddy of his that has a 1967 Pontiac GTO, with a slightly modified 455 Pontiac engine,(better edelbrock heads, intake headers and crane cam upgrades, plus a 4.11:1 rear gear ratio,and 4l80e trans, the car had an annoying ignition miss, which was tracked down to fouled spark plugs, that he had only had in the car for about 12,000 miles, but he freely admitted adding several cans of both octane booster and injector clearer to the same tank of gas as he thought when the miss started it might be a partly clogged carburetor.
additives can be useful, but pouring 2 cans of octane booster and two cans of injector cleaner in the same tank of gas is not likely to promote good results.
luckily he was down to a 1/4 tank so after swapping and gaping plugs I had him fill the tank with fresh fuel and the car is back running as it should.

So what do you think the original problem was??? Maybe a fleck of carbon ? Problems rarely fix themselves. I wonder, did they try cleaning or replacing the plug before putting a bunch of additives in the tank?
Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby grumpyvette » March 24th, 2012, 7:33 am

Im not sure of which brands he used but many octane boosters use additives that result in a fine crystal like ash forming on the spark plugs surface thats semi conductive and over time it builds up and effectively shorts out the spark plugs, now this ash tends to burn off if the octane boosters not used repeatedly, but in heavier concentrations it can be a true P.I.T.A.
in his case the plugs looked as if the surface was sugar coated, so it was rather obvious it was a contributing factor to the miss the engine developed.
adding an octane booster with a high concentration of toluene to the fuel is far more effective, and less likely to cause tuning issues

I did a quick search to see if I could locate pictures, read these links
http://www.installuniversity.com/instal ... 072000.htm

http://www.shell.com/home/content/aviat ... 71600.html

related threads

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=613&p=12677&hilit=octane+booster#p12677

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=109

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=773

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=202


BTW if your wondering how a CHEVY 4l80E gets bolted to a PONTIAC ENGINE

http://static.summitracing.com/global/i ... 230001.pdf
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby Indycars » March 24th, 2012, 11:28 am

Good things to know. I've never read or encountered the crystal structure before.
Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby grumpyvette » April 20th, 2012, 4:16 pm

I'M always amazed at guys who overlook checking the simple stuff, frank stopped by with a friend who has a 1967 fair-lane with a 428 ford engine with dual quads that looks fairly close to this picture I found on the internet, except his cars a burgundy color.
Image
they had installed two carbs that were not ideal, but carbs they had gotten locally when the car engine started to act up, he had purchased the car with the engine a while ago that had been modified by a previous owner , and he was clueless as to the extent of the previous modifications
Image
they had spent a couple hours installing the intake manifold and swapping jets on two 470cfm rated Holley carbs they had installed om a swap meet dual quad intake, it was barely running so knowing I'm a big fan of dual quads they decided to come by.
the first obvious issue was the linkage was set up incorrectly and the linkage contacted the air cleaner assembly restricting the movement of the linkage .
Image
Image
Image
Image
well the first thing I suggested was getting the linkage binding issue resolved and then verifying the ignition timing and fuel pressure, once I checked those it was easily apparent that the float levels were not set correctly.once that was corrected I started checking the linkage which they had set up so both carbs opened exactly at the same time and rate rather than progressively.
BTW THOSE ARE NOT THE IDEAL CARBS
checking that and adjusting the linkage resulted in finding the both the front and rear carbs throttle bores intake gasket was binding the throttle blades , so a trip to the local napa store to get new carb to intake gaskets the gaskets came off and got replaced as they were not correct. once that was fixed its was time to make a test run and it was obvious the jetting was a bit too lean, naturally NAPA didn,t have a large selection of holley jets, so I had to send them out to get several sets, after an hours wait we swapped jets up two sizes and the engine seemed to pick up 50-70 hp and the car idled far smoother, but after a few minutes I found the power brake booster vacuum line leaked, once that was replaced the car ran much better.


related thread
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=444&p=20301&hilit=dual+quads#p20301

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=4010&p=10688&hilit=fairlane#p10688

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=773

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=109

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=4683
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby grumpyvette » June 21st, 2012, 12:17 pm

"HEY GRUMPY? my car started making a faint grinding sound when I back up the car yet no noise in forward gears? and ideas?"

Id be looking at the brakes, u-joints and flex plate or clutch as the most likely sources, it will be reasonably easy to locate the source of the noise if you put the car up on 4 frame support,jack stands or a two post lift and have a friend rotate the tires as you look for the source , he might need to start the car or hit the brakes but with the car up off the tires it should be far easier to locate the noise origin, try to locate the source to the engine,transmission ,drive train, rear differential, brakes, etc. is the source related to the gear the cars in?, tire rotation> in or out of gear? is the noise consistent in forward, reverse? on/off the brakes?

these threads and sub links should help a great deal if you take the effort to read thru them.

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=6669&p=21352#p21352

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=5893&p=22102&hilit=source+noise#p22102
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby grumpyvette » September 18th, 2012, 11:37 am

youll either think Im kidding or just wonder at times about how peoples minds work, I get a call yesterday from a neighbors son,
he has a dodge with a fuel injected v6 and he can,t get it started, but after checking a few thing I find, he has fuel pressure and ignition spark and the compressions good, the timings good etc. SO,I start questioning him, I found he had done a tune up, the night before, but after he finished, it ran a bit rough, so he decided to pour in a can of fuel injection cleaner in the fuel tank, and not having any on hand, he sees a full quart of marvel mystery oil on the garage shelf , so reading the instructions, it says cleans fuel injectors, and reading no further than that,he pours that into the fuel tank because it says it can be added to the fuel to help clean injectors, what he over looked was the instructions that said add about 4 ounces to a full fuel tank, our kid here added 32 ounces to a fuel tank with about 2 gallons of fuel in the cars fuel tank at the time, (the fuel gauge was barely above empty) and the result was the car won,t start.
I had him go get 3 five gallon cans of fresh fuel , once the tank was full of fresh fuel it only took some starter fluid to get the cars engine started, once the fuel rails , were being flushed by fresh fuel and the fuel lines were allowed to bye-pass fuel back to the tank,as most efi systems do,it worked, and as a result,the fuel rails were not filled with about 10% oil the car ran ok.

Image

the stuff works fine if you read and follow instructions
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
grumpyvette

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Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby Indycars » September 18th, 2012, 11:48 am


Come on now Grumpy, you've got to be making some of this up, are people really that stupid ??? ;)

Well, at least now he has the cleanest injectors in the state! :D

Rick
Too much is just enough!!!

- Check Out My Dart SHP Engine Project: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814
- Need a Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator: viewtopic.php?f=99&t=4458
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Re: be sure your fighting the correct fight!

Postby grumpyvette » September 18th, 2012, 11:54 am

Indycars wrote:
Come on now Grumpy, you've got to be making some of this up, are people really that stupid ??? ;)

Well, at least now he has the cleanest injectors in the state! :D



I think MOST of us have less than brilliant moments,think back to your own and your friends past adventures, and while that might not be the smartest move I remember back when I was his age and thats a MINOR screw up compared to some I was involved with, so yeah we all learn from mistakes , and Im just glad I could help , and it was easily fixed.
around my neighborhood all the gear-head kids know that if they get into serious trouble with a car build they can at least stop by and ask advice, and the wifes long ago concluded that young guys knocking on the door and asking for . "GRUMPY " is hardly a rare occurance.

if your friends were like mine back in the 1960s-1980s the phrase,s
"spring bind, and valve to piston clearance".
or " phrases like
"just pick the next larger duration cam in the catalog"
bring back a few less than brilliant but memorable decisions
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
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